Chandler-Schwartz Conversations- Part 3 – An Integrated Analysis Part A

 

Continuing from the last analysis,
https://mjjjusticeproject.wordpress.com/2011/04/19/chandlers-behavior-and-words/ and https://mjjjusticeproject.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/trasncript-analysis-chandlers-behaviors-and-words-part-2/ .

First, my apologies for the long awaited third conversation analysis.   In this post, all three conversations are inter-analyzed, so this post is considerably longer than the others besides that the last Chandler-Schwartz conversation was the longest recorded.  The analysis also includes dates as in timeline because it will show you that Evan’s actions were according to the plans he outlined in these conversations and the basis was NOT about suspected molestation.  In fact, EVERY time David Schwartz asked Chandler about molestation, Chandler answered his question citing other reasons.  Chandler was NOT avoiding the question, he was answering the question with the REAL reasons for his plans.  Chandler wove an intricate web of lies in order to implement his plans.  A timeline shows how he needed time to put everything in order.  Beginning now with a summary of the first two conversations, then the first part of the third conversation, and at the end, there will be an integrated analysis. I’ve put title sections in bold, so if you don’t need a recap of the first two conversations, you can skip ahead if you like.

Conversation One Summary

from:   https://mjjjusticeproject.wordpress.com/2011/04/19/chandlers-behavior-and-words/

(Motivations) *please note that these next statements were only Evan Chandler’s devised perception (devised because he needed a “reason” to implement his plans against the family and MJ) of “events” going on around him.  These statements are part of the fuel he used for his motivation and “reasons” for devising his plans against the family.  It is important to iterate that just because someone perceives something to be, does not mean that is an accurate or true interpretation of events he claimed to have happened.  Evan embellished and exaggerated situations to his advantage consistently.***

 

Chandler’s first conversation with Schwartz skirted around issues, however, these were only Chandler’s perception fueled by anger that “they had cut him out”, meaning MJ, June and Jordan were not including Evan when time was spent together and claimed that no one wanted to talk to him (p.11, lines 7-24, p. 16, lines 22-23, p. 17, lines 1-23- where Evan complains they are going on tour Aug 15th for five months where he says he won’t be able to talk to Jordan, which means, he was not invited to go on the tour with them -, p.25, lines 11-21).  Most importantly, when Evan stated this fact, he inadvertently revealed that whatever he was going to do was TIME SENSITIVE by his own description, such as the part where Chandler outlines his plans, saying it was all planned out, on paper, rehearsed, coached on what to say and do when and that he had to complete certain things by a certain time: August 15th for the most damage to MJ’s reputation and career.
Evan trashed June as a parent and person.  Chandler said June had nobody who loves her or is there for her, and diminished any name Schwartz mentioned were her friends as being superficial relationships.  (p.4, lines 22-25, continues on p.5, lines 1-25, p.6, lines 1-25).  Chandler stated that June was impossible to talk to, inferred she had no sense or judgment, (p.6, lines 15, continuing on through to end of p.8).  Chandler stated June was cold and heartless, on the surface she is charming, and not a human being anymore. (p.11, lines 22-23, p.12, lines 1-2, p. 13, lines 4-5)  Evan’s true hatred for June was exposed in the other two conversations, which demonstrates the intense desire to seek revenge on them all for “cutting him out”.

Now for the most important parts of conversation one: when Evan reveals he has a plan to seek revenge on them all.  Please note that Conversations two and three indicate more motives, “reasoning”, and fuel behind his plans.

Chandler complained that Jordan did not have “anyone to pattern himself after” (p. 3, line 21-25, continuing on p. 4, lines 1-4).  Evan Chandler wanted to be the one who portrayed all that he thought was important as a role model for Jordan to assimilate, as long as he assimilated it from Evan. (p.4, lines 8-18).  Evan did not understand that Jordan needed many people as role models and many people of all ages have more than one role model.  It was Evan’s own fault that Jordan was not close to his own father, but Evan blamed MJ.  Chandler further stated that Jordan would basically disrespect him saying Jordan’s responses to him changed to indifference.  (p.13, lines 20-25, p.14, 8-12), Then Evan claimed that Jordan and June’s behavioral changes were due to MJ being in their life. (p.14, lines 13-19).    Mind you, MJ had been in their lives since 1992 and both June and David pushed for MJ to befriend Jordan.  Evan also encouraged Jordan to remain friends with MJ.  But because Evan was jealous and poorly related to people, HE wanted to be the one Jordan modeled himself after, and that HE would be Jordan’s “hero” and savior. For that hero-role model aspect, Evan said Jordan had to be present when Evan presented the “papers” to June and MJ.  Evan was jealous that his own son was spending more time with MJ and June and choosing to be with MJ when Jordan was supposed to be visiting Evan.  Evan wanted Jordan to see Evan’s behavior thinking Jordan would now want to model after Evan.
After Evan stated some basic “reasons” for his own behavior by blaming everyone else for is lot in life, he then revealed he had a specific plan to target them all.  I display this in this manner so it would be easier for you to see Evan’s intentions and the fact that he had a plan he was ALREADY in the process of implementing and implied he had a TIMED plan: to get it all done before the Dangerous Tour in order to satisfy Evan’s lust for revenge against MJ to ruin his career by a very opportunistic time: a time where the world would be watching MJ.  The “proof” Evan claimed existed, did not exist at all.  (I will show you later where “having proof” was another one of Evan’s lies.)  Anyway, I have typed this out leaving out impertinent conversation, as Evan tended to bounce around from topic to topic in mid expressions when speaking to Schwartz.  (I did not take anything “out of context”.  You can check upon conversations one and two for their complete transcripts of the conversations.  The entire third one is in this post.)

Evan’s Plans As Detailed in Conversation One:  (**reference point***)
Beginning on page 8 (the numbers between any words indicate lines of that page of the actual transcript.  I scrunched it up to omit spacing as this paper would have been at least 11 pages longer if I printed the lines with the spaces as on the transcript:
8
1 I mean, what kind of person is that? 2 If — I stopped taking that personally. 3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, we all have  4 different ways of coping. 5 MR. CHANDLER: You see, as an adult, 6 coping’s no excuse. That’s like driving drunk and 7 saying, “I’m sorry, but I didn’t realize there was 8 a law against driving drunk” and you just ran on 9 the sidewalk. 10 The fact is you’re a responsible adult. 11 You’re supposed to have some sense and judgment, 12 and that’s how it’s going to go down.13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. How about if you, 14 June and I get together? 15 MR. CHANDLER: No. Why do you keep 16 doing that? 17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because I don’t – I 18 don’t want to subject Jordy to this until – I 19 mean, I feel very uncomfortable — 20 MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you 21 this way: I have a set routine of words that I’m 22 going to go in there that have been rehearsed and 23 I’m going to say. 24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 25 MR. CHANDLER: Okay? Because I don’t
9
1 want to say anything that could be used against me. 2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 3 MR. CHANDLER: So I know exactly what I 4 can say. That’s why I’m bringing the tape 5 recorder. 6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 7 MR. CHAN-DLER: I have some things on 8 paper to show a few people — 9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.10 MR. CHANDLER: — and that’s it. My 11 whole part is going to take two or three minutes, 12 and I’m going to turn around [tape irregularity], 13 and that’s it. There’s not going to be anything 14 said, other than what I’ve been told to say — 15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 16 MR. CHANDLER: — and I’m going to turn 17 around and leave, and they’re going to have a 18 decision to make. 19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 20 MR. CHANDLER: And based on that 21 decision, I’ll decide whether or not we’re going to 22 talk again or whether it’s going to go further. 23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 24 MR. CHANDLER: I have to make a phone 25 call. As soon as I leave the house, I get on the
10
1 telephone. 2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 3 MR. CHANDLER: I make a phone call. 4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 5 MR. CHANDLER: Say “Go” or I say, 6“Don’t go yet,”and that’s — 7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 8 MR. CHANDLER: — the way it’s gonna to 9 be. 10 I’ve been told what to do, and I have 11 to do it. 12 I’m not — I happen to know what’s 13 going to be going on, see? They don’t have to say 14 anything to me. [Tape irregularity] “you have 15 refused to listen to me. Now you’re going to have 16 to listen to me. This is my position. Give it a 17 thought.” 18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 19 MR. CHANDLER: “Think it over.” 20 I’m not saying anything bad about 21 any-body, okay? I’ve got it all on paper. 22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 23 MR. CHANDLER: I’m going to hand out 24 the paper so that I don’t inadvertently [tape 25 irregularity], handing out the paper, “Michael,
11
1 here’s your paper. June, here’s your paper.” 2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 3 MR. CHANDLER: “Compare papers. Read 4 this whole thing. This is my feelings about it. 5 Do you want to talk further? We’ll talk again.” 6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 7 MR. CHANDLER: “If you don’t” [tape 8 irregularity] — but, see, all I’m trying to do 9 now, they have forced me to go [tape irregularity] 10 on paper and give it to them to read — 11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 12 MR. CHAN-DLER: — because [tape 13 irregularity]. I mean, isn’t that pitiful? 14 Now, why would they want to cut me out, 15 to go this far, spend this much money, spend so 16 much time in my life crying, being away from my 17 practice, not paying [tape irregularity] everybody 18 else? Why would they want to put me through that? 19 And I made it very clear to June that she was 20 putting me through that because I didn’t want any 21 misunderstandings. I’ve done everything I could to 22 appeal to her. (Inaudible) is cold and heart- — 23 absolutely cold and heartless. That’s all –
Continuing on page 19:
19
1 MR. CHANDLER: It’s still going to be 2 there at 8:35. This whole thing’s going to take 3 five minutes. 4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 5 MR. CHANDLER: I’ve already told you I 6 have — I’m not allowed to say anything more –7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 8 MR. CHANDLER: — than I’ve already 9 prepared. It’s on paper. 10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Is it your — 11 MR. CHANDLER: I’m not going in to –12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Is it because of your13 attorney? 14 MR. CHANDLER: What? 15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because of your 16 attorney? 17 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. 18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why don’t we meet at  19 your attorney’s office? 20 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s something 21 we can do if we get past tomorrow. 22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 23 MR. CHANDLER: He’s willing to meet 24 with them. Right now he’d like to kill them all. 25 I picked the nastiest mother-fucker I could find.
Continuing to page 23:
23
1 MR. CHANDLER: — that June hates 2 Monique. 3 In fact, they went even further and 4 told me several of the things that June said about 5 Monique. 6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 7 MR. CHANDLER: Okay? Now, maybe they 8 went back and told June that Monique said things 9 about her and –10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.  11 MR. CHANDLER: — (inaudible) lied. 12 Maybe they’re lying. I don’t know. But knowing 13 June, I don’t think that they lied. I think 14 they’re telling me the truth. 15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 16 MR. CHANDLER: And I want Monique out 17 of this completely. 18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 19 MR. CHANDLER: Because all that will  20 happen is that June will convince Jordy that 21 Monique’s a bad person and by her presence there 22 she must have put me up to this whole thing — 23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 24 MR. CHANDLER: — and June will 25 fabricate some great lie —
24
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Ahhh. 2 MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, 3 inaudible) I’m only going there because of Monique, 4 because, to tell you the truth, Dave, it would be a 5 lot easier for me and a lot more satisfying — 6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 7 MR. CHANDLER: — to see everybody get 8 destroyed — 9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 10 MR. CHANDLER: — like they’ve 11 destroyed me, but it would be a lot easier. 12 And Monique just kept telling me, “You 13 don’t want to really do this,” and she finally 14 [tape irregularity] for the sake of every-thing that 15 we’ve all had in the past — 16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 17 MR. CHANDLER: — to give it one more 18 try, and that’s the only reason, because this 19 attorney I found — I mean, I interviewed several, 20 and I picked the nastiest son of a bitch — 21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 22 MR. CHANDLER: — I could find, and all 23 he wants to do is get this out in the public as 24 fast as he can, as big as he can — 25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
Continuing to page 25:
25
1 MR. CHANDLER: — and humiliate as many 2 people as he can, and he’s got a bad [tape 3 irregularity] — 4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s 5 good? 6 MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, 7 inaudible) he’s costing me a lot of money. 8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s 9 good? 10 MR. CHANDLER: I think that’s great. I 11 think it’s terrific. The best. Because when 12 somebody — when somebody tells you that they don’t 13 want to talk to you — 14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 15 MR. CHANDLER: — you have to talk to 16 them –17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 18 MR. CHANDLER: — you have to get their 19 attention. It’s a matter of life and death. 20 That’s how I’m taking it. I have to talk to them. 21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 22 MR. CHANDLER: This is life and death 23 for my son. I have to get their attention. If I 24 don’t get it, if I haven’t gotten it on the phone 25 and I don’t get it tomorrow
26
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 2 MR. CHANDLER: — this guy will 3 certainly get it. That’s the next step. And you 4 want to know something? I even have somebody after 5 him if he doesn’t [tape irregularity]. But I don’t 6 want [tape malfunctioned]. I’m not kidding. I 7 mean what I told you before. 8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 9 MR. CHANDLER: It’s true. I mean, it 10 could be a massacre if I don’t get what I want. 11 But I do believe this person will get what he 12 wants. 13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 14 MR. CHANDLER: So he would just really 15 love [tape irregularity] nothing better than to 16 have this go forward. He is nasty, he is mean — 17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 18 MR. CHANDLER: — he is very smart 19 [tape irregularity], and he’s hungry for the 20 publicity [tape irregularity] better for him. 21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 22 MR. CHANDLER: And that’s where it’ll 23 go — 24 MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t think everyone 25 loses?
27
1 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, 2 inaudible) totally humiliate him in every way — 3 MR. SCHWARTZ: That — everyone doesn’t 4 lose in that? 5 MR. CHANDLER: That’s not the issue. 6 See, the issue is that if I have to go that far —7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 8 MR. CHANDLER: — I can’t stop and 9 think “Who wins and who loses?” 10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 11 MR. CHANDLER: All I can think about is 12 I only have one goal, and the goal is to get their 13 at-tention –14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 15 MR. CHANDLER: — so that [tape 16 irregularity] concerns are, and as long as they 17 don’t want to talk to me, I can’t tell them what my 18 concerns are, so I have to go step by step, each 19 time escalating the attention-getting mechanism, 20 and that’s all I regard him as, as an 21 at-tention-getting mechanism. 22 Unfortunately, after that, it’s totally 23 out of [tape irregularity]. It’ll take on so much 24 momentum of its own that it’s going to be out of 25 all our control. It’s going to be monumental-ly
28
1 huge, and I’m not going to have any way to stop it. 2 No one else is either at that point.  I mean, once 3 I make that phone call, this guy’s just going to 4 destroy everybody in site in any devious, nasty, 5 cruel way that he can do it. And I’ve given him 6 full authority to do that. 7 To go beyond tomorrow, that would mean 8 I have done every possible thing in my individual  9 power to tell them to sit down and talk to me; and 10 if they still [tape irregularity], I got to 11 escalate the attention-getting mechanism. He’s the 12 next one. I can’t go to somebody nice [tape 13 irregularity]. It doesn’t work with them. I 14 already found that out. Get some niceness and just 15 go fuck yourself.
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. 17 MR. CHANDLER: Basically, what they 18 have to know, ultimately, is that their lives are 19 over, if they don’t sit down. One way or the 20 other, it’ll either go to the next step or the 21 [tape irregularity]. I’m not stopping until I get 22 attention.

Look at the sequence of those pages:  PAGES 8, 9, 10, and 11 – four consecutive pages, all with 25 lines each page as per transcript, where Evan spoke about his PLANS.  He referred back to the same details of his plans on page 19, and then six more consecutive pages: 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, and 28 saying the same description of his plans. Schwartz could barely get a word other than “yeah” in there (he said yeah at least 34 times), throughout those pages.  That is over 200 lines that are Evan’s alone discussing his plans, with two runs of consecutive pages totaling combined ten pages of consecutive conversation, with only ONE page referring to the plans  in the middle of them.  ALL of those pages are consistent in content of the others and NOT taken out of context.  What is important about the words on those pages is the content but the fact Evan had consistent, no flaw, no interruption, no inconsistencies of cognitive associations regarding plans while he was describing his plans from one page to the other.    Behaviorally speaking that means, when Evan spoke about his plans, the content of the plans was the truth.  The conversation in between 11 and 19 then between 20-22 were parts of the conversation where they were discussing other things on a tangent.   Evan heavily discussed his plans with a passion and SERIOUS intention.  That is three times in just conversation one where Evan referred to his plans saying consistent things about his plans.  I am not saying his reasoning is consistent as to why he implemented his plans, I am saying that his description of his plans are ALWAYS consistent throughout the conversations.  When I say “description” I mean such as: times (basically 8:30/1-8:36 precisely), he was going to hand them a paper, say nothing, wait for response, the make his phone calls to “go” or “not go yet”.  He said the meeting was going to be 5 minutes long (no time for talking like Evan claimed how “important” talking was to him) and no longer. “He was not going to say anything more –because he didn’t want to IMPLICATE himself- but here are the papers, MJ and June, read it, think about it and get back to me.”  Then he would leave and make his phone calls.  He said his plans were not only his, and ALREADY in motion.  That means as of July 8th, Evan HAD devised a plan, on paper, that he could NOT deviate from, all researched, scripted, checked inside and out, rehearsed and practiced well before ANY allegations were made.  Evan implemented his plans in stages and did not continue to the next step until the previous step was accomplished.  He WAITED for responses and consulted with his lawyer as to what to do next based on those responses.   Jordan was in soooooooooooooo much danger in MJ’s presence and Evan acted in Jordan’s best interests effectively that he waited for everything to be in place FIRST…. that was how Evan “acted in ‘Jordan’s best’ interests”.

 

The bottom line is: Evan had a plan that was not only his, one that he was already implementing well before the family and MJ found out about it.  The issue was whether “he HAD TO GO THAT FAR OR NOT.”  Each step, he determined whether he had to manipulate more or go.  Evan made references about going public in conversation one:  “his lawyer” wanted to make it public, was hungry for publicity and was going to humiliate everyone, destroying everyone in the process”.  So the Dr. Abrams report did not get “accidentally leaked” at the end of August, it was intentionally leaked by someone who meant to leak it to further embarrass and humiliate MJ.  Evan wanted to publicly humiliate MJ so his reputation with the world would be ruined and he wanted to get that done by the time MJ opened for his Dangerous Tour, August 15th/16th.   Furthermore, once Evan got what he wanted, he was not interested in JUSTICE, “proving” his case in any way shape or form after that settlement.  It also means that had MJ paid in August the money that was demanded of him, he and his lawyer wouldn’t have gone public with the allegations.  That IS by very human active behavior the definition of extortion. Ray Chandler stated as such in “All That Glitters”, page 128.

All that other fluff talk about how much communication meant to Evan was a FRONT (a false face).  The only communication Evan was interested in was where he could make his demands.   when Schwartz asked him to talk to everyone, Evan responded that he had a set routine on what to say and do, thus refused to talk with every time Schwartz asked.  Evan made comments refusing David’s repeated invites to talk in the third conversation.  Evan stated “He had nothing to talk about” …”he was not interested in talking and asked David ”why do you keep asking that” … (p8 through page 11) Evan was truly not interested in talking unless it was to get to the meeting, so he could hand MJ and June his “paper”, and that was to get to the negotiation phase to demand for the money he wanted.  When asked directly if Evan believed MJ molested his son, he said he did not know and other times answered the question stating what was on his mind instead: such as being left out, cut out, and feeling he was being alienated by any and all of them.  He did not avoid the question by talking about something else totally unrelated or change the subject, he answered the question with what WAS his answer.

Evan stated that he wanted June, Jordan, and MJ’s lives torn up and ruined to satisfy his revenge and money problems.  Evan manipulated his own family, its dynamics and financial “needs”, to create more problems IN the family and he manipulated communication in order to give the impression that they would not talk to him.  He didn’t try to talk to anyone, he left messages instead, life threatening ones to “get their attention” but the threats were also a means to his end of plans.  Evan stated he blamed three main people: June, Jordan and MJ for his problems and responsibilities in life.  Evan called David a bad father, only interested in making money instead of spending time with the family and said David was to blame.  Evan then told David that he was not going to be held responsible, nor was Evan.  Evan said that the blame would go on June, MJ and Jordan.  Emotional manipulation is just one of the ways Evan used to manipulate those around him, he combined that technique to dividing and conquering.

Conversation Two Summary

 from: https://mjjjusticeproject.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/trasncript-analysis-chandlers-behaviors-and-words-part-2/
During the last conversation, at the very end, Evan suspected that they were being tape recorded.  There was a bit of time between the first and second conversation, much more time than between the second and third conversations.  This means he had time to become refocused himself and began the conversation by saying “just for Schwartz to be there tomorrow, that there is nothing for anyone else to say, and that was the end of it.  (p. 126, lines 1-9).  Schwartz kept asking him to meet before then, or to be open to talking again, and time after time, Evan said no.  He said “I have nothing to gain by talking.” (p. 132, line18)  Again, all of Evan’s talk about how communication was SO important to him was a FRONT.  One cannot exist with the other.  Evan cannot say he was all about communication, when in reality, he was sabotaging communication by threatening everyone, leaving only messages and not answering THEM back if they called,  and making meetings conditional as to who attends when.   You see…those actions support:  Evan was not interested in talking like he claimed to be and he also did not try as hard as he was professing to communicate as he said he was.  He had a plan that he was already implementing that he could not deviate.  Evan repeatedly stated they all had to be there, June, Jordan and MJ, and that if one were missing, he wanted June there. (p.126, line 18)  According to his plans, custody was also in priority.  If he could get June on his side, he’d have an easier time with manipulating the rest of his plans against Jordan and MJ.
 

When Schwartz asked him if he and Jordan were there, Evan stated that MJ had to be there, he was THE MAIN ONE HE WANTED. (p. 126, lines 22-25, p.127, lines 1-7.  This demonstrates that Evan was NOT willing to talk unless on HIS terms, by the way of his plans. This demonstrates Evan’s MANIPULATION of dynamics and circumstances.  As indicated in the first conversation, Evan did not want to say or do anything that would jeopardize his plans- or IMPLICATE HIM- and yet there he was talking to Schwartz about his plans.  The important aspect to the reasons he was talking to Schwartz at all was part of Evan’s own dividing and conquering schemes.  While he did some of the dividing and conquering, he was pushing Schwartz buttons in the first conversation, the bulk of it was during the second conversation.  Evan was buttering Schwartz up in the first conversation by saying he was not going to be blamed for anything, after he placed blame a few sentences before it.  (conversation one, page 14-he does blame him by saying “you were not there to balance it out”, lines 18-19) Right after page 18’s end, Chandler then told Schwartz he was not going to blame him.  (Conversation one, page 15-16). Evan was constantly pushing and pulling, which is a means of dividing and conquering.  It was at this time that Evan perceived that the conversation was being tape recorded, but in the interim of the first conversation and the second one, he then recognized an opportunity to divide and conquer, and try to become more refocused.  Evan consistently used opportunities to strengthen his process- evidence of his own practice and rehearsal.

Schwartz asked Evan repeatedly if what Evan was doing was in Jordan’s best interests, and he said it was IRRELEVANT.  These statements Evan made were opposite to one another and both cannot exist in light of the other.  Behaviorally speaking, if you are acting in one’s best interest and saying you care about their best interests (especially ONLY that person’s interest), then whatever subject that comes up regarding that person and situation IS RELEVANT to YOU since you evaluate new information regarding BEST INTEREST of that person if you are to act in their best interest, and therefore whatever you DO and however you do it are also relevant. Most importantly, Evan stating this answer to such an important question shows the cognition that Evan’s actions were not of Jordan’s best interests and that he was aware and didn’t care what it would do to Jordan.  This cognitive association is support that Evan was acting out of his own selfishness, jealousy, anger, greed and vindictiveness.  This basically means Evan was admitting that he was harming Jordan by his actions.  In the third conversation, Evan refers to “a great harm” that he will cause Jordan.  Notice it is EVAN’s actions, not MJ’s, that he is referring. (more on that part later)  Evan said that he was going to take June away from Jordan (she would never see him again) and ruin MJ’s career was in Jordan’s best interests, but also said it was irrelevant if it helped Jordan or not.  (reference, p. 132-33 all lines).   Again, if you are doing something in someone’s best interests, the help aspect is important and it is relevant whether those actions are going to benefit that person. Evan saying “irrelevant” to these actions are behavioral inconsistencies that are totally incompatible to when someone IS acting in someone’s best interests.  Behaviorally speaking again, this is behavioral evidence that Evan was not acting in any way shape or form to Jordan’s best interest nor in any way to improve the quality of life for Jordan.

And yet Evan would claim that he was helping Jordan over and over again, furthermore saying what would satisfy him more was to see everyone destroyed and humiliated, the way Evan said they destroyed and humiliated him.  (Conversation one, p. 24, lines 4-11)  In other words, Evan’s plans were going to destroy everyone, including Jordan,  it was what he wanted to do, what he paid a lot of money to set up (conversation one, p.25, lines 1-6), that alone is hardly regarding JORDAN’s BEST INTERESTS since destroying Jordan was part of Evan’s plans- these kinds of actions are opposite to one another and therefore indicate deception and manipulation.  Bottom line is, Evan did not do this for Jordan’s “best interests”.  Evan was describing his intentions and reasons for his plans: revenge.  This all is further support for Evan’s motivations being to satisfy only Evan, during the first conversation, Evan stated:  “I mean, it could be a massacre if I don’t get what I want.” (Conversation one, p. 26, all lines).  Evan reverted to “what he wants” when asked if it helps Jordan, or anything of that nature, again, showing what Evan was thinking cognitively was ONLY focused on what EVAN wanted, and again, certainly not focused on “what helps or is best for Jordan”.  This is because what was relevant to Evan was ONLY getting what HE wanted.  In the second conversation, Evan began adding in that his “only concerns” was Jordan and his welfare, however, his actions were otherwise.  The fact that Evan began to explain more and try to express the ultimate concerns over Jordan than in the first conversation indicated that he strongly believed he was being recorded.  Evan was also trying to get David on his side and was pitting him against his abilities as a father and step father, and dividing him against June, Jordan and MJ.

Now we are up to timing and speed.

Third Conversation Analysis

 148

1 CONVERSATION 31
2 between Dave Schwartz and Evan Chandler:
3
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Hi.
5 MR. CHANDLER: Hi. I’m on a cordless
6 phone, so let’s not use —
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Don’t you have a regular
8 phone?
9 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, but it’s in the
10 kitchen, and I don’t want to go upstairs.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
12 MR. CHANDLER: I’m still wasted, Man.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Not as tired as me. Oh,
14 you’re probably as tired as me.
15 MR. CHANDLER: Well, I mean, we just
16 don’t — we don’t have to mention any names.

Chandler had a history of abusing drugs and since he used money for drugs, he was not using that money to pay his bills.  Schwartz did not question Chandler at all when Chandler said he was “wasted”, in fact, Schwartz acknowledged by saying Chandler was not as tired as Schwartz.
The “we don’t have to mention any names” part  is the alert that he was afraid the conversation was being tape recorded and the “we don’t have to mention names” part is one of Chandler’s many contradictory statements, and also the reason he was not on a “regular phone”.  Chandler did the exact opposite of name dropping, for he had no problem mentioning: MJ, Jordan, June, Monique, Cody and Kelly in these conversations.  The only names he did NOT mention was his lawyer’s name, or other  professionals who were helping him with his sick plans against MJ, June and Jordan.  History of events reveals the professionals Evan sought were not all willing participants.  Chandler was very adept at manipulating everyone and every situation around him, even when “wasted”.

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. If we could do
18 this: If — I’m telling you, and you know
19 I — just talking it out, I mean, I have a definite
20 communication problem in my — I mean, what happens
21 is when I get frustrated or I — I mean, I just
22 withdraw. I’ve been doing it forever. I mean,
23 I’ve done it forever with everything, and it works,
24 you know, for — it works for me. I mean because I
25 get through it and it just works and then I’m back
149
1 and it’s no —
2 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, except do you want
3 to know something? That can also be — you think
4 that that’s the best way to do something, but if
5 you look at it closely, I mean, I’ve always been
6 that way too. Nothing’s really worked (inaudible)
7 confrontation, and nothing’s as big a deal as it
8 seems [tape irregularity] –
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: — except — and so you
11 back off, and everything sort of takes care of
12 itself —
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, in time.
14 MR. CHANDLER: — except in this time
15 my looking the other way and my failing to deal
16 with the issues have harmed my son greatly. I
17 believe that.

Here Evan stated that he had the same problem in communication with people that Schwartz had, including withdrawing.  It’s interesting to note because Evan emphasized the importance of communication, but, Evan said he had the same problem of withdrawing.   Evan wanted Schwartz to believe since they wouldn’t talk to him, he resorted to force but yet he had a problem of withdrawing.  This is rationalization in Evan’s mind to convince himself that he had done all he could to talk, make things better, when the truth was the opposite.  Chandler did not want to talk it out and avoided this part of the conversation by leaving them messages only any time he tried to contact them (Ray Chandler, p.82).  Evan clearly had chances to talk to people, he was limiting contact himself. Evan would say in this third part of the conversations that he only tried to talk to them 4-6 times from the month of June through July 8th. (more on that later)  The truth is that EVAN made communication HARDER so that he could say, “they won’t talk” to him- that is manipulation of conversation, which he claimed was so important to have.  Evan stated it was others who did not want to talk to him, but that is not true, it was the other way around, Evan was creating that situation, not only by withdrawing but not communicating well when he did talk.  Evan was demonstrating here that “since other methods did not work” then it was HIS reasoning for him to now take action, and “do something”.  This statement here will contradict when Evan later said that it was “expert opinions” (professionals) who convinced him to take action. And again, the only “conversation” Evan was interested in was the opportunities where he could make his demands.  At that time, it was what he was manipulating to obtain at that stage of his plans.

 
Evan said “except in this time my looking the other way and my failing to deal with the issues have harmed my son greatly. I believe that.”

 Now Evan then said that it was his own withdrawing has caused “great harm” with his son.  That phrase “great harm” will repeat in these conversations and the great harm he referred to was something HE caused.  Jordan was choosing to visit MJ rather than Evan and it was Evan’s own fault that he was not close to his own son.  That cognitive association between “great harm” and that it is HE who caused that to his son, is really what this was all about. Not once did Evan ever refer to any “great harm” when he spoke of MJ or MJ’s actions with the family.

****Also please note:  The Chandlers had no complaints about MJ being in their life when MJ was actively engaged with him.   MJ was a generous person, often showering them (and people he liked) with gifts.  MJ did not do that as means to buy love, MJ bought things out of the goodness of his heart- and he was involving them in his life circle of friends because he liked their friendship.  In “All That Glitters”, Raymond Chandler states that Evan saw MJ as an OPPORTUNITY not only for Jordan, but the family as well.  “Michael can provide invaluable opportunities for Jordan, June (specifically stating that the money MJ provided was merely POCKET CHANGE in comparison to his vast wealth), the other kids in the family, AND Evan himself, (p.32-36, 40-41), citing MJ as a “valuable addition to Jordie’s life” (and theirs). On page 59 in a footnote, Ray Chandler referred to MJ as “Sony’s cash cow.”….  These kinds of mindsets clearly indicate someone had jealousy, envy and disrespect to MJ and his money just because MJ politely declined any business proposition from Evan.  It was stated in 2005 trial cross examination that Schwartz had hit MJ up for a 4-5 million dollar “business deal loan.” AND in Ray Chandler’s book.  Cited in several places (including 2005 testimony, Geraldine Hughes’s “Redemption” to list a couple sources) Chandler asked MJ to either make an addition to his house or buy a bigger house for them all to be together, but MJ declined the requests.  Evan got angry with MJ for not “helping” him, which is motive.  The family was very happy with MJ and to be included in his innermost circle.  The moment MJ would not help him and distanced himself from Evan and was the moment when Evan began to devise his plans to ruin MJ, June and Jordan.  It is a FACT that NO accusations were made until AFTER the events in May, not even when Evan took custody over Jordan with the guise of a one week visit and it was made only after Evan had everything set up to go forward with the allegations.  Once MJ said he was not going to pay 20M, he then went forward with the false accusations.  It is these kinds of statements, facts and analysis of Evan’s beliefs, thoughts, and actions that support a financial agenda.  The fact Evan sued MJ and over 100 others in 1996 for 60 million demonstrated his love for MONEY over anyone and anything.  When MJ distanced himself from Evan, it took away “opportunities” for Evan to interact with MJ, and to manipulate him into doing what Evan wanted of him.  ****

The problem is: Even used that as reason to victimize MJ, June and Jordan.  Though Evan admitted he was at fault for the quality of his relationship with his son, Evan blamed them (MJ, June and Jordan) for the reason that  HE was not close to his own son, hence why June stated as she did in 1994 lawsuit (refer if needed to that section).  Evan then turned it into his reason to seek revenge and worse, as reason to justify his plans of extortion and false allegations against MJ and as reason to manipulate custody of Jordan.  Evan had serious money problems (bills, child support payments to the tune of 60K) and owing other money as he spent tens of thousands to implements his plans, and he had career aspirations.  Evan asked MJ to help and he declined, and so Evan devised a plan to seek revenge and get money from MJ by force.  Not to mention May events, where Evan drugged MJ and tried to manipulate him.  These are all MOTIVES.  (Evan had more than one motive.)
 

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, are you talking
19 about harmed him in the relationship with you?
20 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s for sure.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: But —
22 MR. CHANDLER: — (inaudible) forever.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, I think
24 he’s frustrated about me and maybe taking it out on
25 you.
150
1 MR. CHANDLER: No.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because — no. He has
3 said a few things in the past. You know, I’ve
4 disappeared for, you know, long periods of time.
5 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, you have.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right. And he has
7 mentioned — you know, he’s a real sensitive kid —
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why do you take
9 total blame for it? It’s never one person’s fault.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Now I’m telling you it’s
11 my fault. I know it’s my fault, and —
12 MR. CHANDLER: You see —
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: — whatever –

Schwartz offered an explanation as to why Jordan could have been acting as he was towards Evan. This was an explanation Evan was not very receptive. Evan was set on his belief as to why Jordan was behaving as he was. If Jordan was taking it out on Evan because he was venting and displacing anger about Schwartz, then it contradicted Evan’s belief and “reasons for his plans”, that MJ and June were responsible and also contradicts the allegations that he was molested by MJ (refer to dentist visit/Sodium amytal incident).

Evan did not want to at the very least consider other possibilities because then he would have to admit that the issues within his family were deeper and caused by his own family members rather than on MJ.  If Schwartz owned some of the responsibility, then surely Evan had responsibility but Evan repeatedly refused accountability and he wanted to blame MJ.  Evan did not want Schwartz to take the blame because his plan was to blame it all on MJ, Jordan and June.  The rationale did not fit into Evan’s reasoning as he was going to blame it all on MJ in the end.   Again, here, you can see he was verbally setting up and implementing his plans.

 

14 MR. CHANDLER: — you think by doing
15 that you might be — you might be doing a lot of
16 harm.
17 How many times can an [tape
18 irregularity] — when there’s two human beings
19 involved, there’s two sides to the story. I mean,
20 it’s automatic. Two people could witness the same
21 story in two different ways. What I’m saying is
22 that I was married to June. I’ve known June
23 since –

Evan was referring to David’s actions of placing blame on himself (david) as “doing a lot of harm.”  Yes, doing a lot of harm to EVAN’s PLANS.  Evan was placing blame solely on MJ, June and Jordan, and all parts of his plans were to ruin them in many ways.  When David was owning up to responsibility, the very action would go against his plans against MJ, June and Jordan.  It is why Evan would not allow David to take responsibility in part.

A key phrase here is “Two people could witness the same story in two different ways”, which is something he was counting on in order to ensure his plan worked. Sure, people can view the same situation differently; however, he was indicating his belief about a human tendency that is generalized and incorrect.  He was making an assumption and turned it into a BELIEF, which provided fuel to his motivations.  In reality, MANY people can have the same or different view regarding any situation, but to Evan, the only point of view of his interest was his own points of view or “side of the story”.

Here Schwartz explained that responsibility is within the family members involved, but Evan was unwilling to accept it. Evan stated that by “doing that you might be doing a lot of harm” was referring to what Schwartz was saying would ruin the rationale for his plans since he did not agree with him.  But that could also refer to the “great harm” that Evan just admitted doing himself.  It is important to note that Evan was not going to blame Schwartz for the “great harm” no more than he blamed himself at least when it came to his revenge against MJ, Jordan and June.  You see, Evan was dead set to initially blame MJ, Jordan and June, but the end part of his plan was targeted to MJ and placing blame solely on him.  Evan stated “MJ was THE ONE he wanted.”  Placing blame on all three initially just set his plans to manipulate June and Jordan to helping HIM against MJ.  No one would be able to talk him out of it as Evan was highly motivated to enforce his plans.  Any time that Evan allowed blame on David was to manipulate him to participate in his plans later.

(By the way, One aspect of being an adult is for a person to be accountable for their actions, words, behaviors and decisions. Evan refused any accountability in this case.  Whether he constantly blamed others in life is something else.  Many psychological disorders (especially personality disorders) include “blaming” others [for whatever reason] and refusing to accept personal responsibility and accountability as symptomatic behavior under those disorders.)

Evan expressed how everyone else was “making him do this” and how it was their fault he was upset and not working. He devised this plan to get out of his own mess at the expense of other people. He did not care for any consequences. “If he went through with this, he would get everything he wanted.”  There was “no way he would lose”.  He would “win big time”.
Evan stated repeatedly in part one that Schwartz was not going to be blamed and here Schwartz was talking about being accountable, and it wasn’t what Evan wanted to hear.  Evan spent much of this conversation to manipulate David and alienate him to get him on his side.  Remember, the issues Evan complained repeatedly how Jordan wanted to be with MJ more than his own father, how Evan was alienated, how MJ broke up the family and how June allowed it all to happen.  In the transcript passage above the “doing that” was in reference to Schwartz verbalizing accountability; the very accountability that Evan wanted to place on MJ the most (because he wanted money) and then on June (because he wanted custody). If Schwartz was willing to take responsibility, then it would diminish responsibility to MJ and June, which would compromise his plans. THAT plan is the part of the damage he was referring. This is more support that Evan cared more about himself, the things he wanted, and desired outcomes, and these behaviors and words contradicts his statements that “Jordan is his life”, the one he was supposedly protecting.  Evan protected no one but himself and all he wanted to accomplish.

 

 

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. For a long time.
25 MR. CHANDLER: — ’71 or something like
151
1 that, so what I’m saying is that I know her really
2 well. I think I do. Maybe I don’t. I guess I
3 don’t because I suddenly saw a part of her — a
4 side of her which I really hate.
 

 

This segment is another attempt to set David against June by saying something he dislikes in her.  If David identified in what Evan said, then Evan could use that to divide and conquer.  Evan revealed again that he “hates this side of her”, but Evan not only hated that side, he hated her.  Evan said he didn’t want June as part of their lives…ever.  These are strong inner feelings to have against someone to say it many times, let alone once, and certainly it is a MOTIVE.

Certainly, there was much history between them and obviously things were not always great between them, they had divorced.  The hate that Evan described was not something that was developed suddenly nor was it recent- this was built up over YEARS.   Evan expressed it many times of his hate for her.  Leads to this: if the plan had not worked out the way he wanted it to – he could have been capable of devising plans towards harming or killing her later.  June and David obviously were concerned over the threatening messages Evan left on her phone, as anyone would be, however, it is possible they feared he could be capable of such violence.  In the litigation 1994, David stated that he went to MJ’s camp with the hopes they could help protect him and his family…so as he stated.  Most importantly, they played the tape for MJ because of at the very least, the CONTENT IN the taped CONVERSATIONS.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but they’re into
6 survival.
7 MR. CHANDLER: What do you mean?
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: They’re into survival —
9 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
10 inaudible) are you talking about? What do you mean
11 “survival”? Because why? What makes it — what do
12 you mean?
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, they don’t
14 know what’s going on. I have made them — June’s
15 real macho —
16 MR. CHANDLER: That’s exactly right.
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: — on the surface, and
18 underneath she’s just insecure like all of us.
19 Everyone is.
20 MR. CHANDLER: Dave —
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Everyone’s insecure.
22 JFK was insecure. Everyone is.
23 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s the bottom line.
25 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Let’s say they
152
1 are.

This is a telling aspect in this conversation as well.  David said “they don’t know what is going on” and was in “survival” [mode].  If someone is physically threatening you with bodily harm, of course you are going to go into “survival mode”- fight or flight responses.  It means that Evan did threaten their lives and relationships.  They clearly did not understand WHY Evan was threatening them.  It was all part of Evan’s plans to get to the meeting stage.  But that may not have been the only reason.  Evan was pathological, any threat made by him, especially if he were violent before, would be of concern to them.  In these conversations, Evan was threatening everyone’s lives, relationships and livelihood, and surely warning MJ by bringing him the tapes was based on many reasons, including reasons to benefit MJ.

Also, if Evan had truly talked to June as claimed, then she would “know” of Chandler’s complaints now wouldn’t she?  So Evan lied about the content of past communication if he had any.  Up to this point, Evan was increasingly difficult and making trouble especially in communication.  Everyone was distancing themselves from Evan.  The importance of the phrasing is that Evan claimed he told June what was “going on” and he said she said “go fk yourself” (then later Evan said she did not swear at him and use those words directly) and David was telling Evan that she truly had no idea what was going on.  The way David said June was reacting behaviorally speaking is consistent with having been threatened with physical violence and not knowing why. So Evan was lying when he said that June knew of his concerns.  To validate this further, recap to the meeting Jordan had with Dr. Gardner.  Jordan told Dr. Gardner that Evan had told June “something” supposedly in the month of June, but she did not believe him.   But if he said ANYTHING to her about his “concerns”, surely, she would have an idea of his anger.   So talking to June was a lie at least to this content and extent as well. 

So at this point of the conversation, Evan making communication difficult to this point, shows the lack of quality in communication.  This communication lie is consistent with Evan’s lie above of claiming that he spoke to June about what was going on, because again, she would have an idea of what this was about.  Surely, any mother would listen if someone thought her son was being molested, regardless who the perpetrator was allegedly, if that was indeed the issue Evan was expressing.  During the month of June, she invited MJ to visit her in her home and they also visited him.  If she really thought MJ was hurting her child, surely, she wouldn’t have invited MJ to spend time with her and Jordan. ( http://michaeljacksonvindication2.wordpress.com/2012/12/31/april-11th-2005-trial-analysis-bob-jones-stacy-brown-june-chandler-and-dwayne-swingler-part-1-of-4/  http://michaeljacksonvindication2.wordpress.com/2013/01/03/april-11th-2005-trial-analysis-bob-jones-stacy-brown-june-chandler-and-dwayne-swingler-part-2-of-4/

http://michaeljacksonvindication2.wordpress.com/2013/01/06/april-11th-2005-trial-analysis-bob-jones-stacy-brown-june-chandler-and-dwayne-swingler-part-3-of-4/

http://michaeljacksonvindication2.wordpress.com/2013/01/10/april-11th-2005-trial-analysis-bob-jones-stacy-brown-june-chandler-and-dwayne-swingler-part-4-of-4/)
The real issue Evan complained about was that Jordan was spending Evan’s visitation time not with Evan but with MJ.  June allowed Jordan to visit MJ instead, it is very possible she knew of the drugging incident in May…Evan was confusing many issues and constantly causing strife.  It would be easy for her to forget about May if she knew.  Threats of losing her son if she did not cooperate would make anyone forget.  More on the May visits later. (Please see the analysis of Jordan and Dr. Gardner https://mjjjusticeproject.wordpress.com/2011/05/25/psych-interview-with-jordan-chandler/ )  If Evan was capable of drugging MJ AND subsequently drugging Jordan with sodium amytal, he was surely capable of much more deviant and threatening behavior.


There is a theme of security vs. insecurity on many different levels and with many different people and relationships. Schwartz divulged something very profound here and what he meant is important to understand because it seems in reference to both physical survival (meaning against Evan’s threats to kill them all) and survival of the relationships one considers integral to their livelihood and family.  The fight or flight response is automatic.  Evan drugging MJ provided Jordan reason to be afraid of his father, not wanting to spend time with him.  Most importantly, in these conversations, Evan was playing on emotions and this kind of fight or flight response.   His manipulations of everyone had caused them to react in certain ways, some of those ways were played to Evan’s benefit regarding his plans.


Evan was using these emotions and created this situation to manipulate them all.  If June was in a ‘survival mode’ regarding the integrity of the relationships around her, and Evan was causing trouble, she would then be behaving as to preserve those relationships she valued most and here, Schwartz was telling him gently she was ready to do whatever it took to ensure “survival” of those relationships she wanted to keep (such as her son, and or MJ).  She was behaving as if in survival mode, but also consistent with NOT KNOWING why Evan was threatening them. 

Supposedly, Evan began the custody battle because Jordan was choosing to visit MJ over him and June allowed it, which started before these conversations were taped.  This indicates that Evan had put into place his plans BEFORE JULY date of these taped conversations, in fact, his plans may have begun after the weekend of May 22-27th, when MJ visited Evan and Jordan at Evan’s home and since MJ had distanced himself from Evan.  That weekend was when MJ would not agree to fund Evan’s career, and also the weekend Evan drugged up MJ.  Keep this in mind.  It will come up again in the analysis.

The custody battle was a means for Evan to control Jordan and June.  Once he had control over June by threatening her parenting skills and relationship with her son, he could then manipulate her into doing what he wanted.  Once he could manipulate Jordan, then he could get him to lie for him.  The custody battle was a front but also means to get Evan what he wanted.  The custody battle started JUST AFTER the end of May.   SO it is true that beginning in June, Evan shopped and interviewed lawyers…which confirms when Evan stated that he HAD shopped for them in these conversations. 

At this point of the conversation, it would then seem that Schwartz was saying gently that Evan was interfering in their lives because June “went into survival mode.” and that was because of EVAN’s actions.  This is supported by the things that were said in the 1994 litigations also.  Both June and David pointed to Evan’s bad behavior (threats to say the least), manipulations and scheming.

Schwartz was saying that there was no reason for Evan to make threats.  Once Schwartz told Evan that June was willing to “preserve the family”, Evan knew he could then he could begin to manipulate her to do as he wanted.  Evan was causing the issues in order to implement parts of his plans.  Really think about what that truly means.  If one truly believed that their child was being molested, you simply make a report and make someone investigate it.  Evan manipulated everything from the beginning to use it all to extort money from MJ.  He was the MAIN one that Evan wanted.
 

 

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Now, I haven’t
3 really analyzed this until we’re just talking right
4 now.
5 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: I put the blame on me a
7 hundred percent
.

8 MR. CHANDLER: You put the blame on
9 you

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Completely a hundred
11 percent.
12 MR. CHANDLER: I’m sorry. I —
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Completely.
14 MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you
15 this way, okay? You put all of — you put the
16 three of them on the stand (simultaneous,
17 inaudible) —
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
19 MR. CHANDLER: — any questions, and
20 they will all be asked questions, and they will all
21 have psychological examinations —
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous,
24 inaudible) given lie detector tests.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
153
1 MR. CHANDLER: I’m going to tell you
2 what. There is no excuse in law for June having
3 done what she does. Despite the fact that you
4 might say it’s your fault —
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: — whatever you say is
7 going to [tape irregularity] capable of making her
8 own decisions —
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: — and she made those
11 decisions to the harm of her son, despite the fact
12 that, yeah, maybe she’s insecure, maybe she’s macho
13 on the surface, and maybe you fucked her over.
14 Maybe you did. Maybe you didn’t.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: Nobody’s gonna give a
17 shit about that. I know what you’re saying.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
19 MR. CHANDLER: And I agree with you,
20 and I think that had you two had a really good
21 [tape irregularity], maybe she wouldn’t have had to
22 do what she did.

 

Again, Evan did not want Schwartz to explore the responsibility aspect because then it would threaten the “integrity” and reasoning of his plan to blame MJ, June and Jordan. This is why Evan put it all on everyone else here.   The more Schwartz kept on trying to get Evan to talk it out before he did anything more, and the more he talked about accepting blame, responsibility and accountability, the more Evan was against allowing Schwartz to accept blame,  and reverted back to blaming the other three.  The more Schwartz talked about accepting responsibility, the more Evan used Schwartz’ mistakes to manipulate Schwartz into helping him “get rid of Michael”.  

Evan was using emotional manipulation against David into making him feel guilty because Schwartz “messed up” as a father and husband, and to pit David against June.  Evan said he was not going to place the blame on David, but he was sure hitting David over and over simply in great effort to divide and conquer, and manipulation.  Evan said “no one is going to give a sh*t about whether David fked June over” or not and said June was responsible for her decisions regardless strengthens Evan’s intention when Evan said that he was going to hold her responsible.  Evan’s plans were to ruin their lives “to hurt them as they hurt him.”  (refer to plan section if needed) Schwartz consistently challenged Evan again by assuming some accountability- Evan’s response was to put it right back on June and MJ each time, which demonstrated his intentions as he said he would do.  It is possible that Schwartz believe that if he redirected responsibility away from June and MJ to himself, that he believed Evan would back off the rest of the family.  Schwartz was absolutely mistaken.  Evan did not want Schwartz, he wanted MJ.  He wanted to destroy June, Jordan and MJ, not David.

Evan did not hate David, in fact, he trusted him enough to allow this conversation.  Evan stated “MJ is the main one.  He is the one I want.”  So it would make no sense for Evan to blame David, he didn’t have the kind of income as MJ and MJ’s money is one aspect he was after. 


In this passage, Evan and Schwartz are also talking about June’s behaviors. Evan stated that THEY all would have to take psychological examinations and lie detector tests (not himself), but, in reality, Evan would have been asked to take it also.  Sometimes people “threaten” with lie detectors and psych exams as if by saying so indicates they themselves are willing to take them and that therefore they are telling the truth.  However, Evan did not want this to go to court, as he probably feared he would be subject to those tests as well- it is why they pushed for the civil trial and they used Jordan’s rights as a way to manipulate for the civil trial to come first….it had nothing to do with Jordan’s rights, or justice, it had to do with getting paid by third party.  There was no way the Chandlers would consent to lie detector tests unless court ordered.  They avoided a court trial at all costs.  They feared retribution and restitution.

Clearly, this case is not about molestation.  There is no way any parent would choose to let a perpetrator go if it was true (had REAL proof) that person molested their child.  They’d want justice and they would not want others to be victims, but not the Chandlers.  They took the money and ran because the case was not about justice or a true case of molestation; it was about money and control over that money.  If you refer to “conversation one, plan section”, Evan had a plan clearly outlined, was fully intended on seeing it through, had it written down on paper, researched, practiced, shopped/interviewed professionals etc.  AND Evan did not want to get caught extorting and making false accusations because those both are felonies.  He’d face 8-10 for ONE count of each. Conspiracy with the intent to commit a crime might add more.  Evan said “it is MY ass on the line” regarding going prison, not MJ.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
24 MR. CHANDLER: And I know what you’re
25 saying, and it breaks my heart, but I truly believe
154
1 my son is being harmed greatly and that his
2 life — he could be fucked up for the rest of his
3 life [tape irregularity].
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: You gotta tell me why
5 you think he’s being screwed up.
6 MR. CHANDLER: I have the evidence.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: I know, but what — I
8 don’t know what evidence. I don’t know what you’re
9 talking about.
10 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you’ll see.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why can’t you tell
12 me? I swear —
13 MR. CHANDLER: You show up in court and
14 you’ll see it on the big fucking screen —
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: But what —
16 MR. CHANDLER: — and then you’ll know
17 what I’m talking about.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
19 MR. CHANDLER: And you’ll hear in on
20 tape recordings.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: You’ll hear it all.
23 You’ll see it all, just like I have.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
25 MR. CHANDLER: It cost me thousands,
155
1 tens of thousands of dollars —
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
3 MR. CHANDLER: — to get the
4 information I got, and I — you know I don’t have
5 that kind of money –

 

David asked Evan: “You gotta tell me why you think he’s being screwed up” Evan answered: “And I know what you’re saying, and it breaks my heart, but I truly believe my son is being harmed greatly and that his life — he could be fucked up for the rest of his life”. But he avoids answering exactly here but previously, Evan referred the “great harm” to his own actions, not MJ’s. 

The truth is: Evan did not have “evidence” and the “great harm” was in the very plans that Evan had set against Jordan, June and MJ.   The only way for Evan to “know” what he would have before he actually had it was if he was PLANNING to get it.  (refer to the outline of Evan’s plans as outlined in conversation one) Evan clearly stated how he had everything planned out, lined up and at the wait for a phone call once he had his “meeting”- “information” that he had already PAID thousands of dollars….

But you see, in this passage, Evan is trying to convince David of believing that Jordan endured “great harm” that the situation was SO VITAL to Jordan’s well being, and so urgent to act in his best interests “immediately”, and Evan said in this passage that David and everyone else had to wait to see the evidence “on the screen” and “hear it in the tapes” when it all “goes to court” that he did not plan on attending at any point in time for justice.  So vital and urgent that everyone can WAIT to SEE “the evidence” that he had to fabricate to obtain.

Evan demonstrated a clear cognitive disconnect: if he truly knew, believed MJ caused great harm to his son, he would simply say “MJ caused Jordan harm” but he doesn’t say it because he knew MJ didn’t harm Jordan.  Evan then made a clear cognitive association in response to David’s request by referring to what he really associated as his answer: by referring back to “the great harm” to things Evan did, which that his own action caused Jordan the “great harm”.  Every time Evan referred to “the great harm”, he was actually referring to himself and actions.  Evan assumed no responsibility for his own actions but he was using that to BLAME MJ, June and June and in turn, Evan then used that blame on them to justify the reasons for his plans.  Blame in Evan’s case was directly caused by his own behaviors.  This is support to June’s statements in the 1994 lawsuit where she said Evan’s actions were unfounded and without cause.

Most important point: Evan told David he would “Hear it on tape recordings that he HAS” in his possession as of July 8th-  but that is a tremendous lie.  Yes, let’s look at that now, please pay close attention:

Evan said in the paragraphs above that he HAS the evidence, and David would hear was ON TAPE and had to wait. BUT…
Evan did not have TAPED “evidence”  on July 8, 1993  (the date these conversations were recorded).  Because he himself had to manipulate, plant and coach Jordan in order to have “evidence” that he was referring he had:  

1.    Evan claimed to have bugged Jordan’s room, but Evan lied.   This fact is verified by his own brother, Ray Chandler, page 84; “July 11- 12th entry that, Evan did not tape Jordan’s room- “Evan had done none of those things”…(Evan continued): “ I was sitting there lecturing him about lying, and then proceeded to lie to him. But I was desperate. What choice did I have?”As of July 11th, he did not tape Jordan’s room, so he also had NOT taped Jordan’s room on July 8th nor did he during the May when MJ visited at Evan’s house.   Evan could not have in his possession tapes that he did not record, so, the tapes did NOT EVER exist.  Evan lied about having evidence. Evan was desperate for his plan to work- desperation added to jealousy, envy, anger, resentment, and desire for revenge. Bottom line is that Evan did not have “any tape” because “the tapes” did not ever exist let alone exist as of July 8th at the time these conversations were recorded.

2.          Jordan did not have “the dentist visit”until July 16th, which was 8 days after the Chandler-Schwartz conversations were taped.   July 16th was the day that Evan claimed Jordan just so “happened” to have told him about the “molestation” after having a tooth pulled while under the influence of sodium amytal.  On July 8th, Evan said he already had the “evidence” based on words that Jordan “did not say” or claim to know until 8 days later.  The ONLY way possible for Evan to have “evidence” against MJ and know beforehand what “Jordan was going to say” was because Evan planned to make Jordan say it in order to have “the evidence” against MJ.  Evan changed his story from “being suspicious in May” to claiming that Evan found out during a dentist visit on July 16th that Jordan just came out and said MJ molested him.  Both are lies because one cannot exist in light of the other since at the times Evan said each statement he claimed that the statement was true.  The details of the comments were different from one time to the next and so  both statements cannot be true.  Additionally, if you were suspicious of molestation, do you invite who you think molested your child to spend the night or a weekend visit?  Certainly not.  Second of all, Evan made like as if they were at some dentist office but…. EVAN was the DENTIST and the “appointment” was at HIS office and someone else administered the sodium amytal to pull a tooth.  Surely, Evan would not tape an interaction where it could be proven that Evan planted false memories, however, look at this closely- this is what Evan said about the dentist visit:


“When Jordan came out of sedation, I asked him to tell me about Michael and him.  I [falsely told] him that I had bugged his bedroom and I knew everything anyway and that I just wanted to hear it from him….  I told him not to be embarrassed….’I know about the kissing, the jerking off and the blow jobs’ This is not about me finding anything out, it is about lying.  If you lie, I am going to take him down.”  After an HOUR Jordan remained silent, Evan continued his interrogation.”  -EVAN CHANDLER’s official account of the dentist visit day.


A brief analysis of the “dentist visit”.

First of all, Evan was the dentist and a friend of his was an anesthesiologist.  THEY gave Jordan sodium amytal to extract a baby tooth (not the usual choice of anesthetics for extraction of a baby tooth) in Evan’s office.  Evan’s first suggestion was for Jordan to tell him about Michael and him.  The next suggestion he planted was declaring to Jordan he knew everything because he had bugged his bedroom (which he said was false in the statement because he did not say it was false when he said it to Jordan). This planted the false memories/ideas that his room was bugged and that therefore reinforced the idea that Evan KNEW certain details about MICHAEL AND HIM.  Each sentence Evan said reinforced the other suggestions as Evan was making them. 

Second thing:  Evan then SUGGESTED ‘he wanted to hear those details from him’, thus instructing Jordan to tell Evan what Evan wanted to hear as per Evan’s suggestionEvan then told him “not to be embarrassed”, hence another suggestion.  Third thing: Evan suggested more specifically (while he was still under the effects of sedation) that he knew about the “KISSING, THE JERKING OFF, and the BLOW JOBS”, thus planting more specific false memories regarding sexual activity “between MJ and Jordan”Those specifics were what Evan suggested and wanted Jordan to tell him.  Fourth thing: Evan then said “it was not about him finding out anything, it was about lying”, thus placing two more suggestions at one time thus reinforcing the other suggestions.  Evan reinforced the idea that the kissing etc was true because he bugged his room (which was a lie), so there was nothing to find out.  Evan suggested the kissing, jerking off, and blow jobs were on the tapes was then true, even though based on lies and suggestions – Evan was suggesting all was true to Jordan while he was under sedation.

The next suggestion was that “it was about lying”- which was what Evan wanted Jordan to do – the ideas Evan planted were lies.  Evan therefore suggested Jordan to lie with specifics.  He then suggested what was important then was for JORDAN TO TELL EVAN WHAT HE WANTED TO HEAR FROM HIM as per his previous suggestions, thus telling Jordan he wanted him to lie with what content he wanted Jordan to lie about.  Evan planted the suggestion that “If Jordan lied, he would “take HIM down”, which was what Evan wanted to DO.  Then Evan told Jordan to tell him what he wanted to hear, which all were suggestions made to him directly by Evan so then Evan could do what he wanted to do, which was taken MJ down.  “After” an hour, which Jordan remained silent, Evan continued interrogation.  Of course while sedated Jordan would remain silent.  But, it is possible that Evan planted the suggestions throughout that hour, and then still programmed him until Jordan said what he wanted to hear-throughout the drug effects.  

 So Evan drugged Jordan (for a supposed “valid reason”) to manipulate and program him just like how Evan drugged MJ in May (claiming MJ had headaches and asked for medicine), gave him too much and took advantage of MJ’s state of mind.  There is a pattern here, and it shows Evan’s capabilities of harm.

However the difference between MJ and Jordan was that MJ was not susceptible to suggestion and stuck to his beliefs and respect for life, but Jordan was susceptible to suggestion and his beliefs of life were different than that of MJ.  Jordan, having already explored the fantasy screenwriting world, co-wrote a story filled with sexual innuendos, homosexual jokes, etc.  Though as a comedy, to a thirteen year old boy, sexuality whether heterosexual or homosexual was a subject of mystery and where sexuality was made to humor, which was reinforced by those around him.  From a young boy, MJ disliked the behaviors of certain men around him and how they treated women and at times, saw the effects on those women.  MJ adhered to noble values- while in contrast, Jordan had no way of seeing how the jokes in his co-written script had affected others, only the laughter of those around him.  MJ respected women, and everyone else alike.  MJ had values at a young age for he had a degree of maturity to respect people regardless of walk of life -whereas Jordan may not have had.  I am not saying Jordan was not mature for his age, I am saying MJ and Jordan had different values of serious subjects and different experiences.  With “Men In Tights”, it was perfectly acceptable storyline through influences around him, which I think, opened Jordan up to susceptibility when Evan made suggestions to him while Jordan was under sodium amytal.  It is well known in hypnosis that if a suggestion goes against their values and beliefs, there is nothing (no drug, no matter the phrasing of suggestion) that will make that person change their beliefs or do something contrary to those values and beliefs.  This is why there is a difference between the reactions of MJ and the reactions of Jordan.

So course Jordan expected his father was after MJ for money – he knew his father was after money and Evan was going to ruin MJ’s life, which was what he told Pellicano on July 9th and during another questioning afterwards.  The importance is that Evan PLANTED ideas in Jordan’s head while Jordan was sedated with sodium amytal, essentially telling him what to do: lie and telling him to lie based on his suggestions for over an hour of “interrogation”.    Jordan did not tell him anything freely, Jordan told Evan exactly what Evan wanted to hear as per Evan’s suggestions while under the influence of sodium amytal.

Evan typically used opportunities, emotions, vulnerabilities against people to manipulate them to do as he wanted, AND…. he was so unscrupulous as to drug someone up if he thought it would help himself.

The next point continuing the number sequence:  Evan didn’t have evidence as of July 8th because points:

3.    Evan had not taken Jordan to Dr. Abrams until August 17th, over one month after the Chandler-Schwartz conversations were taped.  He took Jordan to Dr. Abrams specifically to avoid the court order (dated August 16th, in which he had 24 hours to return Jordan to June.  Since Evan wanted custody, was convinced he would “win” if he went through his plans, and wanted money, Evan then made Jordan make the false accusations as it was the only way he could avoid the court order to return Jordan.  All these points mean, Jordan was never molested, but that Evan made Jordan make the false accusations against MJ.

4.    Jordan did not talk to Dr. Gardner until October 6, 1993, many months after the Chandler-Schwartz tapes were recorded.  By October, both Jordan and Evan changed their stories many times, thus conflicting previous “information” and statements.  Direct opposite statements means deception because one statement cannot exist and be true if the other statement is also claimed to be true.  Evan used Dr. Gardner for practice and to see if they could fool an expert. Please see the analysis of Dr. Gardner and Jordan.  Jordan did refer to the dentist visit, however, he was coached on what to say and do by Evan.  https://mjjjusticeproject.wordpress.com/2011/05/25/psych-interview-with-jordan-chandler/  After Dr. Gardner had assessed the Chandlers, Rothman asked Dr. Katz to analyze Dr. Gardner’s tapes of ONLY JORDAN.  Dr. Katz said he analyzed the tapes between Dr. Gardner and Jordan.  Dr. Gardner was an expert with custody battles, false accusations and parental alienation, and he knew about the custody battle between June and Evan.  Dr. Gardner would have assessed for false accusations, parental alienation as well as analyzed the custody battle itself for those were his areas of EXPERTISE.  More than likely, Dr. Gardner also taped the interviews with June and Evan, not just Jordan (Dr. Gardner would often stress the importance of interviewing child AND parents).  If Dr. Gardner was in agreement with the Chandlers, there would be no reason for Dr. Katz to analyze Dr. Gardner’s tapes with only Jordan.  http://vindicatemjj.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/reading-between-the-lines-of-larry-feldmans-speech-who-is-dr-katz-part-5/   In this case, Evan was going to blame June for “the abuse” because she allowed Jordan to visit MJ.  Evan threatened he would say SHE was negligent.  So by similar extension, Evan therefore accused June indirectly as if she were the one abusing Jordan in the aspect to accountability and in regard to custody.  Evan felt that June was alienating Jordan from him for she allowed Jordan to choose to visit MJ on Evan’s time or scheduled visitation.  He also blamed MJ for that as well, thus is how Evan would accuse MJ of “breaking up the family”.  Evans said THEY were not allowing him to see Jordan.  Evan refused to believe when Schwartz told Evan that it was JORDAN who didn’t want to visit him and that June had indeed tried to have her son call Evan many times.  I stand by my stance that Dr. Gardner would have been assessing all areas in his expertise while he was evaluating the Chandlers.  I stand by my stance that Dr. Gardner had NOT agreed with Jordan’s claims of molestation.  In the Dr. Gardner interview, Jordan used expressions Evan used, same phrases.  I don’t think that would have slipped passed Dr. Gardner. 

The way Ray Chandler wrote about Dr. Gardner’s interview with Jordan in “All That Glitters” provides even more proof to my original analysis. Ray just declared that Dr. Gardner agreed, went on about other things, referred it to MJ, relayed excerpts of Jordan’s words to Gardner –without any conclusion from Dr. Gardner-and cited psych references and associated that to MJ as to give the impression Dr. Gardner agreed, but Ray Chandler cited NOTHING in that whole chapter indicating Dr. Gardner’s OWN words of HIS conclusion of the assessment of that interview.   Ray Chandler cited all these other things and applied all that to MJ all of which had nothing to do with THE INTERVIEW WITH GARDNER or Dr. Gardner’s conclusion.  The answer is plain and simple; it is because Dr. Gardner DID NOT agree that Jordan was molested and that is why Ray Chandler did not DIRECTLY cite Dr. Gardner’s own words. 

Anyway, based on numbered items 1-4 above, it is a fact: NO tapes existed on July 8th because none of the above meetings took place until after July 8th.  Evan had discrepancies as to when he said he “found out” about the molestation: once it was taping the room (which dated to the end of May, which was the last time MJ visited Evan at his house), and then he said it was during the dentist visit, which was dated July 16th, after the conversations were taped. When Jordan made his declaration in December of 1993, he changed his story also from saying molestation happened at Evan’s house, which the last MJ visited was the end of May, to omitting it on the declaration.  So when was it that Evan “suspected”? May (MJ’s visit), July (dentist visit) or when the “professionals had to convince him” in August or that fictitious letter- all of which are different dates?  All these discrepancies are indications of lies as one cannot exist in light of the other if ANY accusation were true.  In these taped conversations, any time Schwartz asked Evan about molestation, he said he didn’t know, talked about other things, and then backtracked later, all of these contradict one another. 

The evidence Evan claimed to have did not exist, not only because it did not happen, but because he had to CREATE it and that was the reason why he was telling David he had to wait to see the “evidence”.  It is a fact that Evan spent about five months SETTING UP the “evidence”.  Evan shopped and interviewed “several” professionals for the “meanest SOB he could find” who would destroy anyone and everyone, and he had another lawyer in his place if he could not deliver. He devised a plan that was not only his; he was coached on what to say and do.  It was all researched on paper.  He paid tens of thousands for his “Evidence.” …um…”information” he got.  Evan’s own words here clearly demonstrate that Evan was lying about molestation claims and fabricated any “evidence” of it.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: — and I spent it, and
8 I’m willing to spend more, and I’m willing —
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: — to go down
11 financially to —
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s
13 going to help Jordy?
14 MR. CHANDLER: Dave, Jordy’s — I
15 believe that Jordy’s already irreparably harmed.
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
17 MR. CHANDLER: That’s my true belief.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think
19 that he’s fucking him?
20 MR. CHANDLER: I don’t know. I have no

21 idea.


So now the subject of molestation has been asked.  Evan’s answer, “I don’t know. I have no idea.” So just before, Evan said that he had EVIDENCE in his possession, and clearly whatever “evidence” he claims he had, which he admitted did not exist or had ‘existed’ yet, and so see here he contradicts himself again.  These allegations are surely NOT about molestation as he cannot even make up his mind on what happened when and when he had appointments to fabricate the “evidence”.  SO you see, The “great harm” Evan consistently referred was defined as actions Evan had done himself, not ANY reference to MJ.  Pay attention to Evan’s cognitive associations, consistencies and inconsistencies, for they lead to the truth. 

And so you have reference again that molestation was not true, and the real harm was caused by Evan.  Evan said he does not have an idea of molestation, so he had NO suspicions, and therefore, it was not a thought in his mind as of July 8th.  This assertion he made is against any claims where Evan said he suspected before that date and since both cannot be true, the aspect of molestation is NOT true. It is true that Evan lied about taping Jordan and MJ at Evan’s house, for he himself said he never taped them.  Jordan stated to Dr. Gardner that molestation happened at Evan’s house, but that was omitted in Jordan’s December declaration.  When Pellicano asked Jordan about molestation on July 9th, Jordan stated that MJ never touched him and that his father only wanted money.  Jordan stated that many times but he changed his accusations many times.  Evan himself contradicted himself many times when claiming he suspected in May, but also said he “found out” during the dentist visit on July 16th.  Neither Jordan nor Evan could keep the story straight and one claim cannot exist in light of the other claims as they were direct oppositions.  Jordan told Dr. Gardner times of “molestation” but had to have his mother “confirm dates and times”. ALL of these inconsistencies along with other analysis clearly show the molestation aspect were lies.   Jordan only made claims once he was in his father’s care when Evan had already begun to implement his plan.  That is no assumption, this IS the truth.

The very fact that Evan drugged his son and made suggestions about Jordan’s relationship with MJ of an inappropriate sexual nature is clear proof that MJ never molested Jordan and the invention of molestation by Evan’s suggestions IS therefore conclusive  as FALSE ALLEGATIONS.  Clearly, molestation was not the issue, it was a lie, but it was a mighty accusation to leverage against MJ.  He planned to make false accusations against MJ and needed time to create the “evidence”- and this is why the allegations did not “manifest” in the “story” until August 17th.  It was not only until AFTER Evan was unsuccessful in getting a screenwriting deal from MJ and once he was ORDERED to return Jordan to June, that all of a sudden, there were sexual allegations.  Mind you, sexual allegations Evan claimed he “found out” during the Dentist visit….where he drugged his son and planted suggestions repeatedly during over an hour’s time. 

Refer to Evan’s plans as analyzed in Conversation One Summary.  In short, Evan  wanted money, he made a plan to ensure he would get it: by making false accusations, manipulating custody, using the hypothetical scenario letter from Dr. Abrams against MJ, demanding 20M the same day he showed MJ the letter, thus threatening to make false accusations if MJ did not pay his 20M demand.  Again, Evan said that MJ would not know what was going to happen to him.  MJ would not believe what was going to happen to him, simply because MJ was innocent and would not have expected to be hit from him with false accusation claims.  Behaviorally speaking, there is no cognitive association between the evidence Evan said he had to the subject of molestation. The very fact that Evan did not connect this association is another absolute evidence of MJ’s innocence. This directly has only ONE possible interpretation: MJ DID NOT molest Jordan, Evan knew it and that is the truth.  Evan’s own words prove it.
 

Evan’s plan was centered on making false allegations of “molestation against MJ ” and here you see that Evan is clearly lying regarding any kind of proof or knowledge of any kind of sexual relationship between MJ and his son.  So you see how Evan would have to implement his plan at certain stages, because he needed time to fabricate proof?  The timing of these conversations are important because here Evan was stating moments ago in transcript that he had proof, proof that did not exist until he created it, and then now he stated that he had no idea of any sexual relations between MJ and Jordan.  Clearly, the allegations were lies as the stories changed often and used as means to obtain money.  These are the very definitions as what it looks like to behaviorally make false allegations and to extort money.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: But harmed in — in just
23 been spoiled?
24 MR. CHANDLER: No.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Just tell me —
156
1 MR. CHANDLER: You know, you gotta
2 forgive me for one thing, but I have been told by
3 my lawyer that if I say one thing to anybody —
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Okay.
5 MR. CHANDLER: — don’t bother calling
6 him again. He said this case is so open [tape
7 irregularity] “You open your mouth and you blow
8 it,” he said, “just don’t come back to me.”
9 “He said this case is ‘so open'”.

Here, Evan goes back to “my lawyer says…”  as if it to assign accountability to the lawyer only.  Previously, Evan stated it was not only HIS plan and that others were involved. Evan had much difficulty accepting responsibility for anything he did, so this is rather typical to his personality and mechanisms.

Evan avoided the question hiding behind lawyer-client privileges by saying the case was “so open”, but there he was telling his plans to David.  Considering the Chandlers did not file a case against MJ until SEPTEMBER and the psychiatrist visit was August 17th, but on July 8th, Evan said the “case was so open”??? Let me say that again:  A case that has not been filed was “so open”…. This is evidence that Evan and his lawyer were  PLANNING a case, not based on real evidence, but “evidence” that Evan needed time to fabricate and make happen. But Evan was seeing this as a real case because he had every intentions of following through to the end result as his needs were greater than anyone or anything else.  He had serious money issues, relationship problems, and ego issues.  Evan complained so much in these conversations about being left out, not having what he “needs”, or what he wants.  “If I go through with this I win, I get everything I want.” 

  Clearly, Evan was so into himself and his needs, that he didn’t care about the turmoil he was causing everyone.  He didn’t care what it would do to anyone.  Evan obviously had trust in Schwartz to confide in him with so much information as it appears he trusted Schwartz not to say anything.  Evan was too busy trying to manipulate David and divide and conquer to understand or listen to anything that David was telling him. Every effort David made to try to help remedy the situation, Evan shot him down.

“If he said one thing to anyone, then don’t come back to him”…..a very interesting statement as it was meant to provide an additional motivation to keep things a secret, however, it did not stop Evan from talking to Schwartz.  Evan stated that he had shopped for professionals and that he had others lined up in case this lawyer couldn’t come through for him.  Evan was so sure of his plan and had back up professionals, so it mattered little to listen to his lawyer on this aspect.  But most importantly, being advised “not to say anything to anyone or don’t come back” indicates a PLAN, one in motion.  Evan shopped for professions.  He obtained the “nastiest SOB” who would go for a massacre, just as Evan wanted. SO here, Evan seized the opportunity to talk to David as he saw the opportunity to do more damage to everyone, to practice his story, and to continue to divide and conquer and perhaps get David on his side.  At this point in time, it would have made sense to him to gain David, then it would be easier to gain June’s help too, especially by giving the appearance of advice from a professional (as he said THEY advised HIM to act).  All this was part of his plans (one that was not only his) but as egotistical as he was, he did anything and everything to ensure his plans would not fail.  Just as he told David in these conversations.

I hope you understand the meaning of these contradictions and that the situation was about money,jealousy, envy, greed and spite.

 


9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. I respect that.
10 Okay.
11 MR. CHANDLER: Not that I don’t trust
12 you or anything —
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: I know. I respect it.
14 MR. CHANDLER: You have a vested
15 interest in it —
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
17 MR. CHANDLER: And let me tell you
18 this, by the way: What harm would it be to you,
19 what harm would it be to your relationship to June,
20 if Michael wasn’t around anymore?
21 You say that you [tape irregularity]
22 your fault. You say that you made her insecure.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait.
24 MR. CHANDLER: So if he wasn’t around
25 anymore –
157
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah?
2 MR. CHANDLER: — what do you think
3 she’s going to do? She’s going to come back to
4 you.
5 She doesn’t need you anymore. She
6 doesn’t even want you around anymore. She’s told
7 me and she’s told you — I’m sure she’s told you
8 that if [tape irregularity] Michael she’ll get rid
9 of you. She’s told me that. She means it.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well —
11 MR. CHANDLER: She means —
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: The only thing I told
13 you before is I told her I didn’t want him buying
14 her things in Europe. I gave her some money. And
15 then when he did buy her things and she told me, I
16 got pissed off at her. And that’s it, and that’s
17 really the whole thing. That’s all we ever talked
18 about.
 

So here we go with the divide and conquering David and to possibly get him on his side, like as if David would have nothing to lose. Evan laid on the emotions and fears pretty hard.  Here, Even tried many tricks in the book to push David into supporting him by showing David how he could benefit in his relationship with June if MJ was “not around”.

This part still goes back to the previous section when Schwartz asked Evan about how Jordan was being harmed, since it was not sexually, then David asked if Jordan was being harmed because he was being spoiled (as in with gifts, trips).  Evan responded in a perfectly defensive manner by not only avoiding the question, stating what he thought was a valid reason to not tell him (and yet, Evan was there telling David about his plans and complaints), but by turning it cleverly to what “should” interest David. 

Evan said to David:  “YOU have a vested interest in it. And let me tell you this, by the way: What harm would it be to you, what harm would it be to your relationship to June, if Michael wasn’t around anymore?”  See the bait?  Now Evan wanted David to “explore David’s benefits” if MJ was not in their lives.  Evan was preying upon David’s insecurities with his relationship with June.  Who knows whether June may have had ideas about her relationship with MJ, but she could have.  June could have said to MJ a lot of things about her relationship with David.  David admitted things between him and June were already strained for quite some time, possibly even going back before MJ came into their lives.  Evan did not say it because he “explained it before”, Evan’s answer to David was for the purpose of manipulating him.

Evan stated earlier that MJ was not interested in June, but now Evan said  June had interest in MJ because he was buying her things- thus implying her affections could be bought and worse that MJ did it to buy her affection and this could make David lose HER in marriage.  MJ was generous to others, it does not make him a criminal nor does it mean he was “buying affection”.  MJ gave millions without any attachments in return; he did so out of his heart and soul genuinely.  Evan put some bugs in Schwartz’ ears about the possibility that June was not interested in Schwartz anymore because MJ had come into their lives, which is manipulative to get Schwartz on Evan’s side in and of itself.  Schwartz’ ego seemed to have been hit when MJ purchased items for June when David said he gave her money for things to buy, so here you see Evan playing on that to David.


Schwartz seemed a little more secure than Evan anticipated, as David stated that June never expressed anything of that nature to him as Schwartz stated: 

“well, The only thing I told you before is I told her I didn’t want him buying her things in Europe. I gave her some money. And then when he did buy her things and she told me, I got pissed off at her. And that’s it, and that’s really the whole thing. That’s all we ever talked about.”

  

Here David was telling Evan that they did not fight or talk about whether she had an interest in MJ romantically. But despite this, Evan still pushed this button.  Evan was well aware of the media play on the Chandler family and thus by extension to David.  The tabloid the National Enquirer story that published that “MJ found a new family”…. Evan was using that against David (and knew he was already upset about it) to divide David, June and MJ.   It was Evan’s intentions to separate June from MJ and June from David, June from Jordan and MJ from Jordan.  Evan used this part against David personally by applying the situation to David’s “interest”. 

It is possible that MJ and June were interested in each other, he did buy her  a ‘love bracelet’ and MJ said himself that when he likes a woman, he buys her jewelry.  She did spend a lot of time with him, went on trips with him, and accompanied him to the Monaco awards.  However, we don’t know  what was said between MJ and June.   It is said that June and David had been “unofficially” separated BEFORE MJ came into their lives.   Regardless what happened between her and David, they were officially separated in August 1992, and divorced shortly after the settlement was received sometime in 1994. 

I can see many reasons why they divorced: David was always working, Evan was manipulated and  divided and conquered to split them and there seemed to be problems even before they met MJ.  David just said that they never talked about her relationship with MJ, but that he was angry MJ bought things for her.  Evan stated that with MJ in her life, she’d leave David, however true or not, there were many issues between them. See how Evan played with this?

Whether or not MJ was interested in June is only suspect.  On April 26th, MJ was with Lisa Marie Presley attending a South Central educational institution LA program.  It was stated that MJ and LMP had been talking to each other a lot since November, 1992.  It was said that LMP provided support to MJ during the 1993 allegations.  MJ and LMP were engaged a few months and married in May 1994.  If anything was going on between June and MJ, that clearly ended due to EVAN’s interference (just saying), and so, MJ changed his mind and decided with LMP.

Throughout these conversations, Evan had been suggesting to David that MJ was more interested in June and at other times, only Jordan.  Evan was adept at playing both sides of that to hurt David.  Still, the truth is that David and June were the ones who pushed MJ to talking to Jordan and David, June and Evan encouraged them both to spend time together.  Evan then played David by switching gears and implying June cheated on Evan, that June was interested in MJ along and then said it is the best thing MJ could do for his reputation, and now all this talk about how life would be without MJ in their lives.  And still all of that demonstrates Evan was using all of it in dividing and conquering between them.  Again, Evan’s inconsistencies on changing who MJ was “interested in” clearly indicated that Evan was using each against MJ, June, Jordan AND now David to suit his agenda.

Evan then continued the dividing and conquering.


19 MR. CHANDLER: How do you feel about
20 her going off on tour with him? You told me when
21 you were there the other day that everybody’s been
22 calling you saying “Your wife’s been [tape
23 irregularity]” —
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: It does [tape
25 irregularity] —
See how Evan played him?  He got David to say “it does” possibly [bother him].  By Evan playing on Schwartz emotions and insecurities, Evan now has Schwartz where he wants him:  On his side.
158
1 MR. CHANDLER: And let me tell you
2 something, by the way. That’s the best thing that
3 could happen to him, is that people think he’s
4 interested in June.

 

These passages are demonstration of manipulation at work.  Evan was reeling Schwartz in further to ensure he had his support by hitting on all these areas.  How do YOU feel about HER going on tour with HIM??? See?  Yet Evan himself cannot decide where to play this.  Clearly, Evan believes the tabloid stories that asserted MJ was gay.  MJ was not gay, he loved women.  MJ said in a deposition “I’m NOT gay.”  This provides some support to the drugging incident in May.  During that time, it was said that Evan asked MJ if he was gay and again, MJ said he wasn’t.  Evan knew MJ was interested in women as MJ told him “he was not gay” when Evan drugged MJ up in May and questioned him.  Evan knew MJ was not interested in males, but he used tabloid stories that questioned MJ’s sexuality against him and then inserted it with his plans to ruin MJ’s reputation.  Evan knew nothing would hurt MJ and his reputation more than false allegations with children.  Evan made a movie making fun of homosexuality.  Clearly, Evan was possibly a homophobic.  But more importantly, Evan saw an opportunity in using the “gay” stories against MJ to his advantage.  By making allegations that MJ molested his child, who is a male child, would hurt MJ’s reputation in the public’s eyes, for some believed the tabloid stories that MJ was gay, so Evan was planning a double whammy with that issue. 

Evan stated he wanted to “hurt them” the way he felt “they hurt him”.  Since Evan claimed MJ broke up the family, wouldn’t loan him money or support his screenplay movie deals, and felt that MJ supplemented himself as Jordan’s father was a betrayal in Evan’s mind and so in kind, Evan sought to ruin MJ’s reputation worldwide with false accusations with children and make him lose money as he planned it for the opening of Dangerous Tour, when the whole world would be watching.  Not only would Evan then hurt MJ’s reputation by child molestation charges, but he would be reinforcing the false notions that MJ was gay.

Evan felt that the National Enquirer tabloid story insinuating that MJ found a new family in Jordan and June and it hurt both Evan and David’s egos and reputation as fathers/spouse (in Evan’s case, ex-husband).  So now, Evan was going to use tabloid stories not only against MJ, but to ruin the relationship between David, Jordan and June.   Evan said he would get “more satisfaction by seeing them destroyed” so of course he would want to hurt them all in the worst way, and for MJ at the most opportune time when the whole world would be tuned in to MJ.


5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: The fact is, he has no
7 interest in her whatsoever. The fact is he doesn’t
8 even care about her. He doesn’t even like her.
9 He’s [tape irregularity] —
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t think he likes
11 her?
12 MR. CHANDLER: I know he doesn’t. He
13 told me he doesn’t. He can’t stand her. He told
14 me that when —
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Huh! He can’t stand
16 her?
17 MR. CHANDLER: No. He told me that
18 when he was in my house.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. At that point he
21 liked us better than — Jordy too. Jordy’s the

22 same as Michael. It was a simple divide and
23 conquer. They felt us both out.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
25 MR. CHANDLER: They saw who was going
159
1 to let them do what they wanted to do, and then
2 they made their choice.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
4 MR. CHANDLER: And until I had a talk
5 with Jordy one day at [tape irregularity] —
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: — they were gonna come
8 live with me. They were gonna pack up, leave
9 June’s house, and come here.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
11 MR. CHANDLER: That’s what they were
12 going to do, because they were getting more
13 resistance from her than they were getting from me.
 

First point is really quick.  Evan said that MJ did not even like, care or have interest in June, which now he was using against David to split him between Jordan, MJ and June.  See how Evan has been spinning it?  Evan now attempts to put MJ against June by saying he did not really like her, or really could not STAND her…. now matter how he swings it, it is still divide and conquer. Evan was using anything he could to manipulate everyone.  Evan was using this against David, June and Jordan to break their emotional ties to one another and to MJ.  Evan would eventually use this against Jordan in chirping in his ear by saying that MJ was more interested in June than Jordan and if that relationship busted up, then so would Jordan’s relationship with June.  

(BTW when Mesereau questioned June, she agreed that MJ said “they were family”.  And so MJ treated them like he would if they were HIS family.  This demonstrated MJ’s intentions with them, that he was treating them like his family.)


Now this is a funky part of the conversation because Evan twisted his words to mean one thing and ended up expressing another.  Evan said earlier that June would let them do whatever they wanted, and now he said that they were going to move in with Evan up until the point Evan supposedly talked to Jordan.  So, wherever MJ spent his time with Jordan was all ok, as long as it was with Evan.  Evan was insanely jealous of the visits MJ would make to June and Jordan and obviously, Evan wanted it the other way around.   The truth was the Evan was jealous of the time June allowed Jordan to spend with MJ and so he was jealous of MJ.  Evan asked MJ to build an extension to his home or buy a bigger one IN MAY, the FIRST time Evan met MJ.  Evan wanted David to believe that after TWO visits, MJ and he were friends, and that it was MJ who wanted to build the extension or buy a bigger home.  Evan’s words show that Evan wanted Jordan to live with him so MJ could visit him there.  Evan was talking out of two sides of his mouth.  Here he was condemning June for her decisions, blaming MJ for it all, then he wanted custody so he could have Jordan and MJ to himself.   Also, Evan reverting back to MJ’s relationship with Jordan clearly shows he was going to use that relationship against June and David.


Now let’s look at another side of what Evan was suggesting.  He suggested that MJ and Jordan were going to live with Evan”, as if THEIR decision and “the only ones to call the shots” because Evan was “giving them less resistance”?  Yet Evan was blaming June because he felt she was coming between Evan and Jordan.  If Jordan and MJ were calling the shots, it would not matter which parent they spent time or visited.  So which is it:  June allowing Jordan, giving HIM permission to see MJ rather than Evan, or Jordan and MJ telling June and Evan where they would spend their time? If Jordan and MJ were “calling the shots” what is the NEED to “feel out each parent?” when Evan said he was the more permissive one and they got more resistance from June?  Umm.. MJ visited Jordan a lot at June’s house without issues.  Evan drugged up MJ in May and Evan wanted others to believe that it was MJ who asked to build an extension to Evan’s home?  Really?  See how Evan’s lies do not make sense as to how things really were?

Also, Jordan’s custody was not decided by Jordan or MJ, it was decided by a JUDGE who awarded JUNE custody first of all.  Sure, that is why Evan had to manipulate where Jordan was living so that when MJ and Jordan spent time together, they would be at Evan’s house.   MJ distanced himself from Evan since May, probably because of the drugging incident and money requests (all valid reasons), this was information Evan omitted when manipulating David against them, but effectively twisted all onto MJ and Jordan to divide and conquer them from David and subsequently June too.  

The truth was MJ did not have to spend time with Evan; it was his prerogative to visit who he wished, and Evan was acting as if MJ owed it to Evan to be friends and more.  Evan’s words are presumptuous because first of all, MJ had a home and could do anything he wanted to do in his own life, for Evan to say MJ would move in with him and that “they saw who would let them do what they wanted to do, then they made their choice”… then say that MJ and Jordan were calling the shots does not make any sense.  If they were calling the shots, what difference would it make which parent Jordan lived with if they were doing what they wanted anyway?  DO you see how Evan’s reasons were clearly for manipulative purposes only depending on what point Evan was going to talk about or accuse them of in content? Evan said he was giving less resistance than June, but was blaming June for allowing it, and yet, he claims Jordan and MJ were calling the shots and said they chose the parent who would allow them to do what they wanted.  It can’t be all three ways because each is opposite to one another.  So you see, Evan was creating an intricate lie and if you were not paying attention, you’d miss recognizing the lies.   Evan changed his story to suit his agenda- in fact, he changed his story frequently depending on who he was trying to manipulate.  Evan was clearly twisting up everything to make it seem as if he was the only one with any kind of “senses”.  But you see, Evan asked MJ to build an extension to Evan’s home, and so it was Evan who wanted to be the parent in charge in Jordan so MJ would visit at Evan’s home and not at June’s home and at the same time, he was condemning June for a similar aspect.  SHE had custody over Jordan, he lived with HER, which is where MJ was when he visited Jordan.  IF HE had custody over Jordan, then in Evan’s mind, MJ would be visiting there more often.  As long as MJ was in Evan’s presence, then Evan had access to MJ, and possibly as he thought, other connections specifically to career.  That is motive.


Evan twisted things constantly and that is apparent in these conversations.  The more Evan explained in the conversation, the more he projected and revealed his intentions, thinking and motivations. This is exactly what Evan was planning SINCE MJ came into their lives- or at least at some point- to have MJ and Jordan on HIS side. Evan wanted to go on the trips, expected MJ to just give him money after meeting him twice…he expected a lot of MJ.  He was jealous that MJ was more generous to June, Jordan, and the other kids in the family.  Once Evan drugged up MJ and since MJ distanced himself from Evan, he knew MJ would not be around Evan for him to have the chance to ask him of what he wanted.  It was Evan who was using people, not MJ.  Then fearing that MJ would press charges because of May incidents, as Evan’s imagination killed him, he then concocted his plans to TAKE the money he wanted and destroy everyone in the process for his revenge.  Evan accused others of dividing and conquering, but as you can see, Evan was prolific at it himself.  But David did challenge Evan quite a bit in these conversations – he even asked Evan whether he REALLY thought that MJ disliked June.  It seems David had picked up on some of Evan’s inconsistencies.

14 You cannot tell this stuff — you cannot — I’m
15 confiding in you, okay, Dave?
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
17 MR. CHANDLER: Right? That’s —
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Absolutely.
19 MR. CHANDLER: Nobody’s to know this
20 conversation —
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous,
23 inaudible) except you and me; is that right?
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
25 MR. CHANDLER: You promise me?
160
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: I promise you.
2 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. What I’m telling
3 you is that Jordy and Michael are users.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
5 MR. CHANDLER: They had — they were
6 gonna — they had their own relationship.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
8 MR. CHANDLER: They want to carry it
9 out the way they want to carry it out. They don’t
10 want anybody getting in the way [tape
11 irregularity] — least resistance, and that’s the
12 way they’re going. They simply divided and
13 conquered, and June went along with it. And she
14 was wrong because she did it to the detriment of
15 Jordy.
 

See comments in previous paragraph as they apply here also.
The fact the Evan had made Schwartz promise not to reveal anything in this conversation means that he was revealing more and more of what he was thinking, doing and planning. He had trust in Schwartz and he was very adept at dividing and conquering.  He saw the opportunity while he had David talking to him TO divide and conquer, and true to form, he took advantage of it.


Evan now stated that he felt Jordan and Michael were users, they were having a “relationship” and that they were going to do what they wanted regardless.  Again, this contradicts statements where Evan said that Jordan and MJ were “choosing” which parent that would give them “less resistance”.  Again, if they were “going to do what they were going to do regardless”, it would not matter which parent they were with at any time. It is very apparent that Evan wanted to use MJ, as he was trying to manipulate where MJ visited and Jordan’s custody.  Evan’s “rationalization” is falling apart as he tries to fill the holes with whatever fits.  Hence, and indication of lies because of the manipulation and twisting of “beliefs” or what Evan is declaring as “facts”.

Notice Evan plays upon “relationship” ever since David brought up intimacies. 

He called his own son, someone he professed to love so much, a user.  Evan said it was Jordan and Michael who was “dividing and conquering” and June “went along with it”, which was harmful to Jordan.  Evan stated Jordan is a user put Jordan up on Evan’s blame list, and yet at other times, Evan stated that the manipulating was all MJ’s doing.  Evan was setting it up to Schwartz that Michael and Jordan were manipulating June and that they were at fault, even June “for allowing it to happen” and then Evan changes blame as he saw fit.  This collaborates when he said he was going to blame MJ, Jordan AND June- his thoughts and expressions were as he explained he would do according to his plans.  It was Evan’s intentions to blame individuals until he had cooperation from his family and then pose as untied when it was time  in his plans to go against MJ.  Once Evan had June, Jordan and David on “his side”, Evan switched ALL blame to MJ only.  MJ was “the one he wanted” and the means he chose was only steps to get him to a point where Evan could then focus on sabotaging MJ.  In the process, he still hurt June, David and Jordan and severed their relationships, just as he intended and stated in these conversations.


Evan expressed that “they” had their own relationships, but everyone has their relationships with everyone they know- Evan stated it like it was something exclusive to “them”, but it’s universal. June and the children were usually with MJ too. The part where Evan stated “Jordan and MJ are users” is his own projection of himself. HE wanted the least resistance from everyone regarding his plans. HE wanted the position that June had.   HE wanted to be where MJ visited for opportunities he felt he was entitled to have.  HE was dividing and conquering because MJ distanced himself, Jordan preferred visiting MJ than Evan, June allowed it and this is how HE felt alienated. HE could not do as HE wanted- this is projection of his own issues to those around him.  So Evan was going to sever all their RELATIONSHIPS for revenge. 


Evan said he wanted to ruin everyone the way they ruined him. Evan was humiliated as a father because his own son looked up to MJ more than him, June was allowing it and therefore, to Evan, THEY were all evil. To Evan, they all were “leaving him out” which was a betrayal in his mind. Evan presented June as an unfit mother- MJ as a deceitful person who broke up his family, and subsequently, in the months to come as a child molester- these were areas where it hurt them the most. Hurting them, as he felt they hurt him was exactly what Evan said he would do.

Conversation three is a long one, and so the analysis will continue in another part to analyze those sequences.  Instead, I offer:

Conversation Three, Analysis Introduction, Paragraph Two ** title used for reference in this current set of analyses**

As Chandler stated in the first two analyses of the Chandler-Schwartz conversations, his purpose was to obtain money to fund his career and of revenge.  Chandler was very angry with June, Jordan and MJ because “they cut him out, they would not talk to him”.  Jordan was choosing to visit MJ over visiting Evan and that fueled his anger.  But when you read through these analyses, you will see by Evan’s own words that his grievances were NOT about molestation, but rather his ego, money problems and of control over others.  It is important to note that just because Evan did not use the words “extortion” and “false allegations”, Evan’s words and actions are the behavioral manifestations of the very definitions of those words.  Evan did everything in his power to hide the truth of his agenda, however, when Evan stated that it was his “ass on the line” in risk of going to prison rather than MJ’s, it shows Evan KNEW he was extorting and making false allegations and he knew that if he got caught, Evan would stand to spend many years in prison (more than 10 years, depending on counts and whether he’d get the maximum time). (Hughes, Redemption)  There are other events that support his plans were with malice and lack of foundation.  As you read this detailed analysis, you will see how this is so.

Molestation claims were the means Evan used in order to get the money he wanted and because MJ did not give him money to help his career when Evan asked in May, Evan felt that MJ owed him. Since May, MJ AND Jordan distanced themselves from Evan.  Because Evan’s ego was hurt and he thought MJ owed him, he created a plan.  He’d come to say MJ “broke up the family”, and ruined his reputation as a father.  Evan wanted revenge in kind: to force him to give him money to fund his career aspirations, then ruin MJ’s relationship with the Chandler family AND ruin MJ’s career worldwide.  Evan was angry with June and Jordan as well.  Evan thought June was interfering in his relationship with Jordan and alienating him from Evan.  Evan sought revenge in kind: he not only alienated Jordan from June, he permanently severed Jordan’s relationship with June altogether.  Evan was upset Jordan would choose to visit MJ over him and sought to repay in kind by manipulating Jordan into betraying MJ.  Evan ruined Jordan by severing the relationships Jordan held dear, gave him sodium amytal to plant false memories, and heavily coached him over the course of many months, which is child abuse and exploitation.  Evan said he was going to do all that repeatedly in these conversations with Schwartz.

Despite that Schwartz told David that JORDAN himself did not want to have contact with his father and said that June tried everything possible to encourage Jordan to have a relationship with Evan, Evan went through with his plans anyway because his desire for money and his own needs were more important than anyone or anything else.  Evan disregarded David’s words because it was against Evan’s reasoning for his plans and sought revenge on his own son anyway because he saw his son as a means to the end in achieving his goals.  There was nothing anyone could say to him that would deter him from going through with his plans.  Evan systematically and methodically alienated Jordan from his entire family and severed his relationships of ALL those around him as it was vital to have Jordan alienated from those who could help Jordan.  Evan used the custody battle to hurt June and sever the relationship between her and Jordan.  He used the custody battle against Jordan to alienate him from June and MJ.  Once he got Jordan on a one week visit, Evan DRUGGED HIS OWN SON and programmed Jordan for over a hour regarding suggestions of molestation.  Once Evan had that done, he then used professionals to write an assessment on a hypothetical molestation, and that was the letter he present to MJ indicating that if MJ was not going to pay him, he was going to make false accusations.  Once Evan had that letter from a psychiatrist regarding the fictitious scenario, Evan then used that letter against June and MJ.  The threats Evan made via phone was the means to obtain the meetings between Evan, June, and MJ, and when MJ would not pay, Evan MADE his son to make false allegations against MJ in order to get the money that Evan wanted for his career.   He did exactly as he said he would in the Chandler-Schwartz conversations.

During these Chandler-Schwartz conversations, Evan said he had “evidence in his possession that was locked up”, but the “evidence” not only did NOT exist, but could NOT have happened as of July 8th, 1993,  the time these Chandler-Schwartz conversations were recorded.  (Evidence of this will be demonstrated in these analyses.)  This is proof that Evan was lying and needed time to set everyone up;  he needed time to FABRICATE the claims against MJ and this is behavioral proof that he had an intricate step-based plan that he intended to see through, just as he said on July 8th, 1993.  Evan discussed his plans in these Chandler-Schwartz conversations saying specifically how he shopped and interviewed professionals who would do his bidding.  Evan said the plan was ON PAPER, written out, researched, checked thoroughly, ALREADY IN MOTION at the time of these conversations, and the plan was not only his, others were involved.  Evan also manipulated psychology professionals who he used for rehearsal, practice, and who would say what he wanted them to say. Evan said he paid TENS OF THOUSANDS for the “opinions” of “experts” and lawyers many weeks before allegations were made.  Though claiming the “experts convinced him to act ‘in Jordan’s best interests’, everything Evan stated in his plans was about what EVAN wanted, what EVAN needed and what EVAN wanted to accomplish for his revenge.  Furthermore, you don’t go shopping and interview for professionals if you do not have an opinion of your own (or suspicion in this case, molestation) or an agenda.  NO professional in this country would EVER have to convince a loving parent that molestation is a harmful, yet Evan said they had to convince him.  At the same time, Evan stated the plans were not only HIS plans, others were involved.

Evan said it was “life or death” situation, but yet Evan took the time (from May to almost three weeks in August) to not only shop but interview professionals but to wait over two and one half months to report it.  Evan said he was doing this in Jordan’s best interests, but Evan NEGOTIATED for MONEY for a screenwriting play deal and ruined the relationships Jordan held dear, severed the relationship between June, Jordan and MJ, lied to ruin MJ’s reputation worldwide and make him lose income, just to “hurt them as they hurt him”.  “Jordan’s best interests” was all that and more?  These kinds of inconsistencies PROVE that Evan was setting everyone up, acting of his own best interests, and sought to hurt others out of jealousy, greed and spite.  Evan would claim that he was the only one ‘acting in Jordan’s best interests’ and yet he waited until he had his ducks in a row, until he manipulated his family to help him with the allegations and only when he could not manipulate MJ, and not until he was court ordered to return Jordan to June’s custody then, only then Evan took Jordan to the same psychiatrist he used for information regarding the hypothetical when Evan made his son make the false accusations.

Evan repeatedly stated “the great harm he was about to cause” was always in reference to Evan/his plans and his own actions.  (as you will see later in this analysis).  Evan’s actions were not in Jordan’s best interests.  Evan’s actions to were about his own ego, how he could solve his money problems and have Jordan under his thumb once he got paid.   To say that Evan was highly motivated to see his plans through to the end is an understatement; he was obsessed and fixated.  Evan was going to implement his plans no matter what and there was no one, not even his 2nd wife, who would be able to talk him out of it.  Evan was so certain he would “win and get everything he wanted”, which also strengthened his motivations.  Evan’s desire for revenge, money and greed far surpassed any morality, integrity, dignity and respect for any of his family and MJ (who Evan considered a FRIEND after meeting him twice).  When actions are fueled by more than one motivation, the total motivation becomes exponentially magnified.  Readers will see how that unfolded during this analysis.

***side note to readers:  There are many times where the analysis needs to refer to all the above.  Instead of repeating those words, I will simply write to refer to the above paragraph.  I will reference it as “Conversation three, Analysis introduction, paragraph Two)***
Besides the above,  readers need to remember as you are reading this analysis:  The reason these conversations were tape-recorded initially was because Evan had left a series of messages to June on her home phone machine threatening to kill everyone (including the children and MJ) and they had no idea why he said it.   To find out what Evan was planning/doing, David and June then decided to contact Evan and record these conversations.  After June and David made the recordings, they played it for MJ on  July 9th – which was the last day MJ spent time with the Chandlers.  Once Evan knew that David taped the conversations, he went ballistic and physically harmed Schwartz.  In fact, Evan had physically assaulted Schwartz on more than one occasion regarding the very same issue of the taped conversations and that because they warned MJ.

Evan pushed his plans into full gear any moment he felt he lost control over everything.  By July 12th, Evan manipulated custody of Jordan AND immediately after, was the dentist/sodium amytal incident, where Evan claimed to have learned of the molestation, as if Jordan just so “happened” to say it then.  If Evan had the “proof” in tapes he said he had as of July 8th, then how can it also be true that Evan “happened to find out about the molestation” on a dentist visit on July 12th or so- again, an incident that didn’t happen until AFTER July 8th?  These behavioral inconsistencies show a lie because both cannot be true in light of the other.  Evan then spent the rest of the summer putting his ducks in a row, setting people up and manipulating them.  He said on July 8th he had proof, but had to set everyone up AFTER that date, and would not act on “Jordan’s best interests” until MJ refused to give him 20M.  That is the very behaviors of what it means to commit extortion and make false accusations.

To corroborate this further, I have to jump to a series of  lawsuits in August 1994.  After Evan, Jordan and June received the settlement, Evan was not done with his revenge against June and David.  David was Evan’s list to seek revenge because he was the one who taped the Chandler-Schwartz conversations and played it for MJ, which obviously alerted MJ of Evan’s evil plans.  Evan sued June and David Schwartz and they sued him (amongst other litigations related to the entire incident of 1993).  The details in this series are directly related to the 1993 lawsuit against MJ.  In 1994 after the Chandlers received a settlement, in Evan’s suit against David and June, Evan stated that David and June were responsible for taping the conversation, which had gotten exposed to news media (and thus threatening complete exposure of his plans).  He sued them for invasion of privacy, causing intentional distress, and a penal code having to do with taping private conversations without permission.

If Evan was not plotting to extort money from MJ and exact revenge on June and Jordan, there would be no reason for this lawsuit against June and Schwartz.  If Evan was telling the truth about the claims he made against them all, again, there would be no reason for these series of litigations.  By then Evan was successful in extorting money from MJ and exacted some revenge against June and Jordan, but he did not get the money as he wanted.  As it turned out, Jordan was awarded the most and it was put into a trust fund.  Jordan could not touch it until he was of age, and therefore Evan could not get his hands on it until then.  He had Jordan in his hands, completely isolated from everyone who could help him, but again, neither could have all the money up front.  However, it seems Evan wanted more money that he felt he was entitled to immediately.  June and Evan both got 1.5M as part of the settlement, and that was a far cry from 20M outright.  So now Evan was seeking damages against both June and David.  David not only counter-sued, but also sued Evan separately.  Jordan sought emancipation early, however, Jordan continued to live and support Evan.  It seems that both Jordan (at least in his later teens) and Evan were motivated by money.

 

Evan vs. june and david 1 Evan vs. june and david 2 Evan vs. june and david 3

The suit in August 1994 was not about custody, but about INVASION OF PRIVACY from July 1993 conversation, which were directly related to Evan’s claims he made against MJ and when he used the situation to manipulate control over custody in 1993. The reason the conversations were recorded was because Evan threatened to kill the family, including the children and you will see in this analysis of “Part 3” where Evan also threatened to kill MJ.  The basis of Evan’s 1993 claims against MJ was specifically to extort money from MJ and Evan negotiated for multimillion movie screenplay deals and to exact revenge on June, Jordan and MJ for wrongs Evan felt they did to him.  However, suing June and Schwartz after the settlement also would appear to achieve another goal: as if his reasons, motivations and claims were LEGITIMATE.  Backtracking is one way people try to enforce genuineness as it offers an opportunity to go back in the past and fill in “holes”.  Inconsistencies during the litigations of 1994 also shed light of truth and highlights the LIES even more.

Although June was answering Evan’s lawsuit against her and David in 1994, “THE said deal” June referred to was said by directly describing and revealing Evan’s motives and plans as detailed in these Chandler-Schwartz conversations, which was exactly what Evan did against MJ in 1993.  In essence what June was claiming happened was indirect, but well intended meaning that:

Evan created the situation not only in “bad faith” (which usually means lack of trust, based on his own issues rather than real events) due to his own negligence.  Negligence meaning that Evan fabricated lies about everyone and devised the whole scheme to seek revenge, to avoid child custody payments (past, present and future), money to fulfill career aspirations, that he shopped for professionals and they helped him devise his plans further and that he manipulated his son’s affection for the intention of controlling Jordan’s newly acquired assets (money).  Negligence meaning that he manipulated his family, used situations for his own agenda and divided and conquered to split everyone up. She said that Evan had no foundation or cause to make the claims against everyone that he did, which stems from “bad faith. She was basically stating without directly saying it that Evan manipulated custody over Jordan based on reasons that were UNFOUNDED and without cause.  She further stated that he used the situation to accuse her of neglect regarding a situation that he had no foundation or cause to have concern.  Furthermore, June referred to a July 30th sealed release agreement….  (http://jetzi-mjvideo.com/books-jetzi-04/red/red134.html read from 134 through 136I believe it was by then (July 30th) Evan had manipulated June (into thinking that MJ molested Jordan) directly by claiming that he had evidence in his possession locked up somewhere that did not actually exist and that he manipulated her further directly by  using Dr. Abrams’s note regarding the hypothetical situation, which he received around July 15th and  Rothman’s letter on how to report abuse via third party without liability to a parent (July 27th) against her.  The only two “things” that Evan had to show June as of July 30th were those letters.  It is clear that Evan threatened June around July 27th that if she did not cooperate with him, he would say she was negligent.  Evan stated in the conversations that he blamed June claiming she was negligent in Jordan’s care.  In the custody battle hearing on August 17th, June claimed that Evan made her sign a paper under duress.  The judge ruled in her favor and ordered Evan to return Jordan to June.  Because Evan was ordered to return Jordan, and he wanted to go through with his evil plans, Evan then took Jordan to make the false accusations instead of returning him to June.

But let’s look at that more closely aside from the above.  In the Chandler-Schwartz conversations, Evan stated to David that he had proof back (on July 8th, 1993) with “evidence” that had not existed yet.  Evan spent that summer setting everyone up, and yet here in the 1994 allegations, he claims that he was acting to protect Jordan all along.  He did not take custody through appropriate means, he manipulated custody by simply NOT returning Jordan but by making June sign a stipulation once he had Jordan on that what was supposed to be one week visit, and then by taking Jordan to a psychiatrist once he was ordered to return Jordan.  Evan never mentioned in ANY custody battle hearing that he suspected Jordan was molested, which was something he said he had “proof” of as of July 8th.  Evan claimed he just so happened to have “found out” during the dentist visit on July 16th, which was after July 8th.  Evan also did not have the psychiatrist response to the hypothetical situation until AFTER July 8th. Evan did not take Jordan to make the allegations until AUGUST 17th.

Had Evan said he suspected molestation during ANY of the custody battle hearings from May to August), he would have had custody without manipulation.  Also, Evan did not act on this until well over a month later, August 17th, when June filed the ex-parte.  Evan didn’t mention suspected molestation then either, he simply brought Jordan to the psychiatrist before the hearing on that day, and this was after Evan was unsuccessful in negotiations for screenwriting plays earlier that August.  Again, Evan did not “act” until he had everyone set up and not until he had Jordan well conditioned and coached, as well as all his other ducks in order.

This means exactly of June’s statements in the 1994 litigations:  June then was directly implicating Evan as fault for the 1993 allegations and custody battle by directly describing and revealing Evan’s motives and plans as detailed in these Chandler-Schwartz conversations.  When you compare June’s description of Evan’s actions, she was describing exactly what Evan said he was planning to do as Evan described in the content of the Chandler-Schwartz conversations that was taped which was the reason Evan was at the time suing her for privacy invasion.  Evan did some astonishing manipulation, huh?

Some could interpret June’s words to mean that Evan had no reason to accuse her of being a bad parent and was not negligent because she did not witness any molestation.  However, Evan did not witness any either.  He said he had taped Jordan’s room when MJ visited back at the end of May, but it is well known that he lied, as he admitted willingly, that those tapes of MJ and Jordan didn’t exist.  (See All that Glitters- pg number, sic)  What Evan did was beyond negligent, careless, and certainly with LEGAL fault and liability.  By June saying Evan lacked the standing to make the allegations against her AND MJ because the “injuries” (Evan’s complaints about June and MJ) were by Evan’s own negligence, carelessness, and or legal fault, with the physical threats of violence, was the basis of her counter claim.  Evan’s death threats were the reason they taped the conversations, the death threats were part of Evan’s plans to manipulate June, David and MJ and to help get him to achieve the “meeting” part of his plans.  And now in 1994, June was making all that clear.

The 1994 lawsuit was the only court known description June gave that could ever prove that she did not believe MJ molested her child(basically said that Evan created the lies), that MJ was not the one who interfered with relationships in the family, but that it was Evan’s actions that tore the family up.  June skirted around the issue during the 2005 trial by having selective “memory loss” of recollection.  If you have not read her testimony, do so.  What she says, and doesn’t “remember” is important when you compare other things she said.  Mesereau did a great job in bringing out her inconsistencies.

 

Now let’s look at David’s counterclaim against Evan in 1994.  David’s side of the 1994 lawsuit is also important because it also provides validation that Evan threatened to kill the family (as corroborated by different people) and it indicates some evidence that Evan had assaulted David at least twice because David not only taped the conversations, but also played them for MJ.  (refer to the three pics above describing the litigation in 1994).  David stated specifically in the counter-suit that the reason he taped the conversations was due to Evan’s phone calls made on July 7th threatening to kill everyone, including the children.   David claimed that Evan violently attacked him twice, causing injuries that needed medical attention at least one of those times (brain damage, two counts of assault and two counts of battery).  One of the assault dates listed was July 9th, the very day Evan found out that David taped the conversations on July 8th and played them to MJ, Fields and Pellicano.  In this lawsuit, David reveals parts that was not apparent previously, which proves Evan’s evil plans were based in lies, manipulation, as means to extort money and ruin the lives in kind as he said he would in the Chandler-Schwartz tapes.
 

In the Chandler-Schwartz conversation part three, there is content regarding threats left on the phone- which collaborates information regarding the same threats in the 1994 litigations in the above paragraphs.  Evan did in fact threaten to kill people, including MJ, which was the reason David taped the conversations.  Would he have killed June, Jordan and David if they did not join him in Evan’s plans to ruin MJ?  Would Evan have sought to kill MJ if he did not pay the 20M demand?  To make my point, in the litigation in 1994 David said he took the tapes to Fields and Pellicano in the hopes that “they would help protect the family and prove that Evan made violent threats”, however, that is a partial lie.  June and David already had the proof that Evan threatened them in the taped conversations with Schwartz.  If they kept the phone machine messages, they had that proof too.  So there was a different reason why they played the tape for MJ, Fields and Pellicano, the only reason that is possible was to protect MJ, but they would never admit that later because they feared retribution and that if taken to court, restitution and possible jail time.  After hearing the tape, Michael spoke to Bert Fields who then talked to Anthony Pellicano.  This was when Pellicano was brought into the case to help with investigations.  ( Geraldine Hughes, Redemption beginning on p. 55.)  However, it was said that Anthony Pellicano had nothing to do with the actual taping of the conversations.  David said that HE recorded the tape, took it to Pellicano and gave it to him.  David did not say that HE with the help of Pellicano had made the tape recording, he said “I made”.  (refer to picture two)  The collaborates the fact that Pellicano did not have anything to do with taping the Chandler-Schwartz conversations on July 8th.  On July 9th, Pellicano questioned Jordan many times, each time, Jordan said that MJ did not do anything to him and that his father just wanted money.  So here we arrive to truths: the tapes were made because of Evan’s threats, Pellicano had nothing to do with the taping, and Jordan without any undue influence stated that MJ didn’t harm him and that his father was after money.  Haters like to say that Pellicano was behind the recordings, that he is now in jail for illegal tape wiring and that he altered the Chandler-Schwartz conversations, but that is simply not true.  In the Chandler-Schwartz conversations, Evan stated that MJ would not know what hit him, that he was not going to believe what was going to happen to him and he would be humiliated beyond belief, which means Michael had no idea what Evan was about to do until he heard the tapes, which is in support that MJ was innocent.  Had MJ truthfully molested Jordan, he would have anticipated getting caught, and therefore would know what could possibly happen if caught.  So when Evan said MJ would not be aware, Evan was admitting of MJ’s innocence.    June and David’s counterclaims in the 1994 litigations also support MJ’s innocence.

If Evan was not guilty of conspiring against MJ (and them all) on July 8th, why would he assault David on July 9th once he found out MJ knew about their conversation?  It is clear that the reason Chandler assaulted David was solely because David exposed Chandler’s plans to make false claims against MJ and extort money from MJ, which threatened success of those plans.  Evan’s plans were VITAL to him and he did not want anyone ruining his chances of getting money and he stated that consistently.  “If I go through with this, I win big time.  I will get everything I want.”, Chandler stated.   The other assault date was not specified in my source, but it did state AUGUST of 1993, around the time when Evan and his lawyer were demanding 20 million dollars from MJ in the form of screenplay deals.  They were fighting about whether David’s name was going to be on the lawsuit along with Jordan, Evan and June.  Evan did not want David’s name on it and said he did not deserve to have any money from it, and subsequently assaulted David again as the fight got heated.  Supposedly, Evan hit David hard enough to knock him unconscious. It was during this meeting of August, additionally, Evan was caught saying: “It is [my] ass on the line to go to prison”, meaning Evan, not MJ.  If MJ was truly guilty of molesting Jordan, Evan should have said MJ’s “butt” was on the line to go to jail”.  Now again, if Evan’s claims against his family and MJ were “the truth”, then there was NO reason for Evan to say that he was the one (NOT MJ) in danger of going to prison.  (Redemption, p 182-3)  MJ haters love to say that the reason Evan did all he did was to “protect” Jordan from harm; however, they do not know vital information that proves otherwise.  The 1994 litigations shine a light on Evan’s intricate web of lies and the magnitude of planning on his part.

I realize that all the above is repetitive, however in behavioral analysis, there is reason for it.  It is checks and balances against itself to show true motivations, behaviors and reasoning.   When you look at what he said he would do and what had come to happen, it was as he said he would do.  In these conversations, he stated why: money and revenge.  When asked directly about molestation, Chandler answered with something else.  Considering “evidence that didn’t exist” and the many way he sought to fabricate it well after the taped conversations, this indicates PLANS IN MOTION.  Chandler’s claims of molestation and tearing apart the family were lies.  As you read through this analysis, it will become clearer to you.

A crime is not committed without the presence of motive and opportunity.  Evan had many motives and he created the opportunity step by step.  Evan had manipulated many people, including his family, professionals and he used anything for his purpose, often twisting it all up.  The entire scheme was “not only his plan” (the plan involved others) and he was creating a situation for there to be an opportunity.  By bringing in others to get him around legalities and help him in the process, this exponentially fueled his primary and secondary motivations because he saw a way to do it, was convinced he would get away with it, he then felt more of a desire to achieve his goals.  When you combine that with owing at least 68K to child support and “tens of thousands more” that he paid for professionals to help him with his plans, it added more fuel to motivation.  When motivations are charged with emotions and financial needs, with the expectation of all desired outcomes (revenge and money), they are exponentially strengthened.  Evan was desperate to solve financial responsibilities and he was extremely jealous of MJ, the additional fuel of a National Enquirer story featuring “MJ’s New Family” at the Monaco awards strengthened Evan’s emotions, needs and motivations to target MJ.  This in depth analysis will demonstrate how Evan Chandler created an opportunity stemming from desires to resolve money issues, to alleviate past and future child support payments to June for Jordan’s care, to seek revenge against those who Evan Chandler perceived had hurt him, and to gain a one way ticket to be able to pursue his true passion (solely screenwriting and quit working a private dentistry practice).  Furthermore, in the process, this document will also show the declarations Evan Chandler made regarding his plans to destroy everyone around him were exactly executed, with some slighted adjustments when people did not respond as Evan Chandler was anticipating.  In other words, again, Evan Chandler implemented his plans as described in the Schwartz-Chandler series of three conversations.

 

(to be continued)

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One Response to Chandler-Schwartz Conversations- Part 3 – An Integrated Analysis Part A

  1. Pingback: Chandler-Schwartz Conversation-Part 3 – An Integrated Analysis Part B | mjjjusticeproject

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