Psych Interview With Jordan Chandler

This article is an evaluation of the partially disclosed psychological interview conducted between Dr. Gardner and Jordan Chandler.

**Please Note:  There is a question as to the legitimacy of this interview transcript and it’s content, as some states require court order for these types of sessions to be released. We do recognize that the interview may not be authentic, however, we felt it necessary to provide an analysis, considering the content of the interview that was posted by a website discrediting Michael Jackson.  We know that the validity of the Dr. Gardner interview transcript is in question, however, since it was revealed in court that Dr. Katz reviewed the interview between Dr. Gardner and Jordan Chandler, we can assume that the authentic report does exist.  The fact that this “hate” site is up and on for millions to view and create the wrong impression, we thought it prudent to give it a professional behavioral analysis. **

This evaluation will demonstrate that Evan used Dr. Gardner’s expertise to prepare his plan, educate Jordan on what to say and do, and to possibly use information gleaned to use against June and to not implicate himself in the custody battle.

Dr. Gardner interviewed Jordan Chandler on Oct. 6th, 1993, after Dr. Mathis Abrams interviewed Jordan on August 17th, 1993.  Dr. Abrams is a specialist in child psychiatry and forensics, including child abuse and false accusations.  At the request of Larry Feldman (June, Jordan and Evan Chandler’s lawyer), Dr. Katz had “reviewed the tape” of this interview with Jordan.  Usually with children, sessions are taped so the child does not have to actually endure seeing another psychiatrist unless absolutely necessary.  The psychology profession as a whole would not put a child through anything that is unnecessary due to the harm it can cause for them to re-hash an issue.

First, some facts about the psychology field regarding treating children.  The APA has strict guidelines when working with children, especially child abuse cases.  The only times that a child would be sent on referral while still in therapy are in regards to situations such as these:

1. A new issue in treatment arises to which the current clinician is not competent and the professional sends a child on referral or consult.  All therapists educated and trained in abuse cases include the area of false accusations simply based on the fact that false cases DO arise.   An example of reason to refer, can be due to issues the clinician is not competent or a diagnosis/treatment issue such as an uncommon childhood disorder.  Most child psychiatrists in the forensic field are trained in treating most major psychological disorders, false allegations, behavior/conduct disorders, criminal/juvenile delinquency issues and other severe conditions but occasionally, a professional may run into a case that they are not competent.

2. There is an issue with the therapist continuing therapy due to unforeseen situation and the problem is the child cannot go without a session too long or it would be like starting over again in therapy between the therapist and child: ie. the therapist’s personal reasons- death in family, or illness- the situation is only temporary.  This may not be a possibility considering Jordan said he was still in therapy and he did not say anything like this in the session with Dr. Gardner.

3. The child and therapist do not have good rapport.  This may not be a possibility because again, Jordan stated he was still in therapy and does not say whether there is a problem between him and his therapist.

4. The Family moves and has to change therapists  Jordan says he is still in therapy, so this is not a possibility..

While one can rationalize over the exact reasons why Dr. Gardner was brought into this case, we still must regard important facts based on events, dialogue, and history and by doing so, the motivations become much clearer.  We will examine the psychiatrists, the Chandlers, the interview, the history surrounding the 1993 allegations and outcomes.  Please realize that this analysis is based on behavior analysis techniques, which integrates evaluation across all information presented through verified resources.

What is interesting is that in the beginning of this interview with Dr. Gardner is that it is stated that Dr. Gardner is “usually used for the defense” as indicated on the interview dialogue.  Whose defense are they referring to?  The fact that the author of the site wrote “usually for the defense” infers that the Chandlers were not the defense.  However, as you will come to understand that Dr. Gardner’s report could have been used for specific reasons, including the custody battle between Evan and June Chandler Schwartz.  The owner of the site wanted the public to believe that it was used against MJ, however, the very fact the conclusion is missing makes it very suspicious.  If the conclusion was against MJ, surely an anti-MJ site would want to make the conclusion well known.  The FACT they did not include it, speaks volumes.

Dr. Gardner’s expertise is in child abuse, false accusations in child abuse, PAS/(Alienation) theory and CUSTODY BATTLES.  During the 1993 allegations, June Chandler Schwartz and Evan Chandler were in a custody battle.  Evan Chandler had “taken” custody of Jordan on July 12, 1993. The following day, July 13th, Evan made June Chandler sign a document that stipulated 4 conditions: Jordan Chandler could not go out of the city of residence (LA) without prior written approval by Evan, Jordan was not to be in the presence of MJ, past child support was not owed any longer, and while Evan had temporary custody of Jordan, he did not owe any future child support to June.  Look at the date.  Remember what Evan said during the Chandler-Schwartz conversations that took place on July 8-9th 1993: he never wanted June to see Jordan again, wanted custody over Jordan, had money problems, and wanted to hurt them, including MJ and Jordan, the way they all “hurt” him.  This event was part of Evan’s plan.  He said how he had been coached on what to do and say.  Said he paid a lot for it.  By July 13th, he had implemented a part of his plan JUST LIKE HE SAID he would.  He said, if MJ did not meet with him by July 11th, then he would go through with the rest of his plan- a plan that included custody over Jordan and he was using the situation with MJ to do it.

Subsequently, June Chandler filed the Ex Parte on August 17, 1993, the judge ruled that Evan had to return Jordan to her by 6 pm that evening and ruled that the paper that Evan made her signed was null and void.  Instead of returning Jordan, Evan took Jordan to see Dr. Abrams where Jordan subsequently made molestation allegations against MJ.  Because “child abuse” was reported, Evan was allowed to have temporary custody of Jordan since he threatened to claim that the abuse Jordan endured was under June’s care since she had custody.  Despite having temporary custody, Evan still threatened June that she would not see her son again.  These actions alone support Evan’s words that he wanted custody, had no intentions of returning Jordan and was determined to use the situation regarding MJ as means to get what he wanted.

Even though Jordan was “still in therapy” and had already seen Dr. Abrams to make his accusations, Jordan was sent to Dr. Gardner at the request of Larry Feldman, June, Evan and Jordan’s lawyer.  Dr. Gardner interviewed BOTH parents as part of the process, however, they BOTH wanted custody.  Remember that June had stated May-August 1993 repeatedly that she did not see anything wrong between MJ and Jordan and did not believe that anything happened.  Then, her statements changed since Evan’s threats in August that year when she temporarily “lost” custody of Jordan on August 17, 1993.  Larry Feldman was Jordan, June and Evan’s lawyer in the 1993 case against MJ, so they obviously they wanted to be perceived as a united front, at least until that part of Evan’s plan was completed.  Evan stated basically that June would not be able to see her son, “UNLESS HE LET HER”.

The site source wants you to believe that Dr. Gardner’s evaluation was used against MJ, but they’ve left out some valuable information: Dr. Gardner’s conclusion.  Considering the site was Anti-MJ, they would have posted the conclusion if it had been determined against MJ.  They would NOT have posted it if it were against any of the Chandlers, such as if it was determined that they were using Jordan against each other, or that they were instructing Jordan.  Anything against any Chandler was omitted from that site, conveniently such as any information that could support motive for them.  Everything they put on that site was against MJ, not June or Evan or Jordan. Additionally, there were other links that added some details that could only have been added by someone who talked to the Chandlers- someone they trusted they’d keep the secret of conversation.  The Chandler’s were under a gag order, but someone not listed on the 1993 settlement would not be gagged.

Let’s look at something a moment.  According to Ray Chandler’s book, Ray Chandler stated that he got the information because he was “witness” to events DURING that time.  A declaration that when Ray Chandler was subpoenaed in the 2005 trial, he submitted a 70 page document to quash the subpoena.  Ray Chandler stated in this 70 page document that there was nothing in the book that pertained to MJ’s case!  “All that Glitters” was the very book Ray Chandler went around discussing on tv interviews insisting on MJ’s guilt.  Ray Chandler REFUSED to testify in the 2005 trial, thus refusing a chance to stand by his words in his book which insisted on MJ’s guilt. Ray Chandler did everything he could to NOT testify.  We’re NOT saying with distinction that Ray Chandler owned that site, we’re saying that he was not under the gag order.  Ray Chandler was Evan’s brother…. who had spent a lot of time in TV interviews to insist on MJ’s guilt, but refused to testify and submitted a quash subpoena in the 2005 trial.  All of these aspects are motives for the Chandlers, motives that make the accusations of 1993 beyond highly questionable.  These motives lead directly to the truth that MJ was innocent; the Schwartz-Chandler conversation verifies MJ’s innocence and indicate that the accusations the Chandlers made against MJ were false.

Still, the possibility remains that the Chandlers could have used the opportunity against each other.  Evan harbored much anger and hate towards June.  June was not likely to be all lovey-dovey to Evan with a strong, enduring united front; he had been threatening June that she would never see her son again.  It is likely that she was very angry with him.  It was an extremely volatile situation.  Both June and Evan had motive in more than one consideration.

Dr. Gardner’s sessions with Jordan were at the request of Chandler’s attorney, Larry Feldman. Usually when this is a parental decision, they don’t need a lawyer to help them decide whether their child needs additional therapy.  If Jordan was having bonding issues or any other issue with his current therapist at the time, his parents would have simply again, sought another opinion themselves.  Instead, the referral came at a request of a LAWYER- which alludes that it did not have medical benefit, but a judicial one.   Secondly, after Gardner’s interview was completed and the conclusions were in, Larry Feldman FURTHER requested another professional to review Dr. Gardner’s work.  A LAWYER…..  so the referral by Feldman for Jordan to see Dr. Gardner had nothing to do with anything therapeutically beneficial to Jordan.  Feldman was NOT his guardian to have a say in Jordan’s “treatment”, so Evan would have to allow it considering he had temporary custody at the time of Dr. Gardner’s interview (October, 1993).  Evan had MORE control because he had temporary custody; it was part of his plan.

Feldman was building a case against MJ and June, but Evan was going to hurt June in the process.  Evan stated repeatedly in the Schwartz conversations “MJ IS THE ONE I WANT” and that he was going to destroy them.  He said he wanted to destroy everyone the way he perceived how they hurt him.  Evan systematically turned everyone on one another by dividing and conquering.  It is likely that Evan would come to use this information against June in the custody battle.  Evan used the situation with MJ as means to gain control over his son and the entire situation.  If Dr. Gardner’s findings was in agreement with Larry Feldman and with the Chandler’s claims, there would be no other reason to bring in Dr. Katz to analyze the tapes, evaluate them and report back to Larry Feldman1.  If it had been against Evan, Jordan, and or June, or in favor for MJ, then there would be enough reason for Feldman to want another professional’s input.  The information detailed in a conclusion of a psych interview could have in no doubt have given some “education”…. like the familiar MO when Rothman consulted Dr. Abrams with the “fictitious scenario of suspected child molestation” back at the end of July at the request of Evan AFTER he had taken Jordan to the dentist (Sodium amytal incident).

In the 2005 trial, June stated that Feldman was NOT her lawyer, yet he represented all Chandlers- Jordan, Evan and June, concerning the case with MJ.  In the 2005 trial, June said she was never represented by Feldman nor did she ever sue MJ, however, on the 1993 settlement, Feldman represented all three Chandlers to which June received 1.5 million dollars.  This money would in no doubt would have helped her.  Furthermore, in the 2005 trial, June would come to barely recall to answer questions that would expose certain facts, and the rest of the time, Mesereau exposed some of June’s inconsistencies and lies.  Her actions prove that she only “supported” Evan after August 17th under duress.  It is likely that she may have had the thought to use these consults against Evan, because she was not willing to lose Jordan.   When Evan did not do anything he promised June concerning Jordan, it would explain the series of litigation between the Chandlers and the Schwartz AFTER the 1993 settlement. The Schwartz-Chandler conversations were admitted as evidence during the Schwartz. Vs. Chandler case around 1994- immediately AFTER the conclusion of the settlement.

A very good analysis was done by VindicateMJ.  Pay particular attention to the section regarding Dr. Katz and Dr. Gardner.  (http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/reading-between-the-lines-of-larry-feldmans-speech-who-is-dr-katz-part-5/)

Dr. Katz was the director in charge of the interviewing of those children involved in the McMartin case.  He was asked by the DCFS to do assessments on the children to see whether they had been molested.  Dr. Katz believed those children and his methods of questioning was used in the McMartin case- over 300 children made accusations.  However, while I do not wish to put down a professional, I would like to merely point out that  Dr. Katz was wrong in his analyses in the McMartin case, where over 300 children were later found to have made false accusations.   The number of cases alone within the McMartin case is astonishing, and it means that in over 300 cases, Dr. Katz believed the children.  Wrong over 300 times… In the psychology field, the McMartin case was used as a prime example in at the very least of how children can be led into making false claims and clinically, how to NOT conduct an interview with a child.  I’m sorry, but professionally speaking, false allegations was not Dr. Katz’ forte.  (http://www.ezilon.com/information/article_3253.shtml)

The sessions with Dr. Gardner did not appear to be of clinical value to Jordan, as he stated in this interview, he was already in therapy and did not vocalize any issues between him and the therapist.  We believe that Dr. Gardner was brought in for a few other reasons.

One: Dr. Gardner was considered the leading professional in child abuse/custody battle claims. He would have been able to tell whether Jordan was making false claims and whether he was coached by his parents.  Dr. Gardner warned in the McMartin case regarding false allegations and that professionals must take care in evaluating claims of child abuse.  At least Dr. Gardner recognized what Dr. Katz did not.  Dr. Katz was way off on those evaluations.  Evan had stated many times in the Schwartz-Chandler conversation how he was coached on what to do and say.  He had paid professionals well for their knowledge… some professional aided, I am sure, unwittingly.  Evan stated repeatedly in those conversations how he did not want to say or do anything that would ruin his plan.  There is no doubt that he would be interested on whether he could fool an expert.  This was a high motive.

Two: June had legal custody over Jordan, but was in Evan’s care since July 12, 1993; he NEVER returned Jordan.  (He said in the Schwartz conversation that Jordan would never seen June again and that was what he wanted.) When the court ruled that Evan must return Jordan to June, Evan did not return him.   Instead he took him to Dr. Abrams to make the allegations against MJ.  Once the allegations were made by Dr. Abrams, Jordan was removed from June’s custody temporarily, pending future hearing and investigation.  Dr. Gardner had the reputation of at times, recommending  custody change in favor of the alienated parent, depending course, on details.  Evan’s main complaint was that he was alienated by June from Jordan.  If Dr. Gardner had recommended that Jordan be turned over to Evan’s custody legally, permanently, there would have been one less reason to consult with Dr. Katz.  Nonetheless, one cannot deny custody, for both Chandlers, was a motive.

Three: Dr. Gardner’s expertise was also in parental alienation.  Evan would have wanted Dr. Gardner to conclude that Evan had been systematically alienated from Jordan by June and MJ.  Usually in severe cases of alienation, Dr. Gardner stated he would often request a custody change in favor of the alienated parent.  Evan and June both wanted custody over Jordan.  They both would have motive to hire Dr. Gardner for custody and alienation issues.  Evan repeatedly stated in the Schwartz conversations that they were all ignoring him, not talking to him, that they took Jordan away from him.  Alienation was a motive for Evan.  June in turn could say that Evan was alienating HER from Jordan….BOTH had motive.

Four: Evan had stated in his conversations with Schwartz that he had professionals who coached him on what to say and do.  Evan said very clearly, that the professionals were well paid for.  It does not mean that they were all in on the plan since they were paid well, it means he spent a lot of money consulting professionals until he got the answers he wanted.   Back in May, Evan sought “the nastiest SOB (lawyer) he could find (Rothman), so he was accustomed to “shopping around”.  While the Chandlers did not consult with Dr. Gardner until October 1993, regardless, it is fact that Evan had used professionals to his advantage previously.  It is obvious that he continued to search for those professionals who would support his cause, giving him information he could use, whether they were part of it willingly or unwittingly.  Information to strengthen his cause, no doubt, would be a high motive for Evan.

It is exponentially likely that he and his lawyer and the Chandlers used Dr. Gardner as practice as to whether they could fool a professional whose expertise was in these areas mentioned.  It is also likely that they could have used the conversations with Dr. Gardner as scripted practice for court hearings or documents.  They had Dr. Gardner’s analysis of not only Jordan, but June and Evan based on what was revealed in this interview.  All they would have to do is either request a copy of the transcript, or if unethical, be wired and transcribe their own copy.  With a plan like the Chandlers had, Dr. Gardner’s evaluation of Jordan and his parents would provide naturally some professional input on all three people.  It is very possible that the interviews with Dr. Gardner inadvertently showed the Chandlers what to do and what not to do, certainly not realized by Dr. Gardner at the time.

Behaviorally speaking, those four reasons fit congruently behaviorally, based on timeline, actions and words of pertinent parties, and based on all known and verified information as well as consideration of the professional backgrounds of both psychiatrists.  The reasons appear inter-related, which in behavioral terms, would the provide additional strength in motivation and in motive to behave as they did.  All these reasons reinforced the others exponentially, thus increasing the motivation behind it due to the inter-relationship between each reason.

Back to the Gardner interview.

Dr. Gardner stated in the interview below that he had spoken to both parents previously at the time of the conducted interview and he said that would interview with BOTH parents again AFTER he spoke with Jordan.  It is typical for a child psychiatrist to speak to the child’s parents both before and after interviewing the child, and to interview them separately as well as together for a rounded evaluation.  In order to determine Dr. Gardner would want to compare the interactions as part of his evaluation.  He would need to see how they interacted together and separately to determine certain aspects such as coaching, family dynamics, and to determine whether there was any false accusations.  The conclusion would have included assessments on Jordan, with comments about June and Evan regarding thing they said, family interactions and contrasts between all interviews.  At least, a competent doctor would evaluate all the interviews as a whole even though the main focus was Jordan’s “treatment”.  Whatever Dr. Gardner would have to say, no doubt would have been educational to the Chandlers.

Once Dr. Gardner completed the interview and evaluation, Larry Feldman wanted Dr. Katz to review his work.  Professionally and logically speaking, the only reasons to have a review of someone’s work is to either confirm or refute it.  If it had been in favor of MJ and against the Chandlers, it would give Feldman and the Chandlers motive to have another review it.  They omitted that information about Dr. Gardner’s evaluation (at least on that site) perhaps because they would have to explain the content in BOTH the interviews Dr. Gardner performed and also Dr. Katz’ review, and possibly expose that Dr. Gardner had seen through the Chandlers.   THAT is what they did not want the public to see.  The site where the Gardner/Chandler interview was posted was Anti-MJ.  If Dr. Gardner’s conclusion indicated that the Chandler’s story was believed by Dr. Gardner, I am certain that they would have posted the conclusion as proof against Michael Jackson.

Alienation Aspect

Evan Chandler believed he was being alienated from his family, however, he never recognized how his own behaviors helped encourage his own alienation.  Quite simply, children do not bond with a parent with whom they sense no trust, love or show genuine caring.  Attachment theories do not only apply to children, but adults also do not form any kind of attachment to others without foundations in trust, love and genuine care.  (Ainsworth, Bowlby, 1980’s)  Evan should have looked within himself as to why he was not close to his son.  According to Anthony Pellicano, when he interviewed Jordan about Evan’s claims in the tape made by June and David Schwartz, it was reported that Jordan said that “all his dad wants to do with him (Jordan) is to remain inside and write screenplays and that all Evan wanted was money.”  So it appears Jordan may not have thought his own dad valued him beyond making screenplays. (http://www.aphroditejones.com/Michael_Jackson_Trial/Michael_Jackson_Trial.htm)  Evan was more than willing to place this blame on everyone else, as he clearly indicated in the Schwartz-Chandler conversations.  Evan was not willing to take any responsibility for the lack of quality in his relationship with his son.

Evan tried since March 1993 to establish himself in the triangle between him, Jordan and MJ, respectfully, MJ did include Evan personally by spending time with the two in Evan’s home.  MJ sensed something was not right as he subsequently distanced himself the month of June 1993.  When Pellicano advised MJ with “the tape” incident in July, 9, 1993, (MJ was with Jordan and Jordan’s sister) MJ had no idea the situation was that volatile.  Three days later, Evan would “take” custody of Jordan (July, 12, 1993).  This was when Evan manipulated the situation further in order to alienate Jordan from his loved ones.  The “alienation aspect” was then two-fold:  Evan claimed June and MJ were alienating Jordan from him, then he alienated MJ, June and Jordan from each other….when if all he really wanted to be close to his son, all he had to do was invest in quality time with Jordan doing things of shared interest and not alienate him from those Jordan loved.  At the same time, once Evan had taken custody over Jordan, June could have complained that Evan was alienating her from Jordan.  He had refused to return Jordan, even with a court order, Evan found a way around that.

How does Dr. Gardner fit into Chandler’s scheme?  Well, Dr. Gardner spent his life   researching the areas of divorce, false allegations of child abuse, alienation, and child psychiatry.  Evan Chandler’s goals were very specific.  He said himself that he wanted to “torture them as they did to him.”  He said that he wanted custody of Jordan, said June and MJ had alienated Jordan from him, claimed he was “ignored” by the main people involved and was highly in debt.  He wanted to alleviate these conditions in his life, obviously not caring to ANY consequences.  One of Dr. Gardner’s approach in his theory is simple to understand why he could be a person of interest to both June and Evan:

“When PAS is severe, or rapidly approaching the severe level, and the mother is the primary promulgator, then I recommend a change of custody.” (Gardner, 2001)

If Dr. Gardner determined that Evan or June was being alienated to the extreme, he would have recommended custody change.  At the time, June Chandler had sole custody of Jordan until Evan took custody by tricking June into allowing Jordan to be with Evan on July 12th, 1993.  If Dr. Gardner determined in Evan’s favor, it would have strengthened his custody case.  Remember, Evan had no intentions of returning Jordan to June, for when he was court ordered to return him on August 17th, Evan took Jordan to make the accusations against MJ.  Once Dr. Abrams reported suspected abuse while in June’s care, Jordan was temporarily taken out of June’s custody and was given to Evan, pending investigation and hearings. But once Evan got June to cooperate by threatening her she’d lose her son, it was much easier for him to KEEP custody over Jordan.  If June were to use Dr. Gardner against Evan, if he had determined that she was the alienated parent, it would have provided her strength in her custody case against Evan.  They both had motivation for Dr. Gardner’s interview.

Once they received the settlement, Evan could then say that June was still negligent- even though a stipulation existed in the agreement that the claim was paid for negligence, not child molestation.  June still allowed Jordan to see MJ and the settlement stated some negligence on MJ’s part.  Remember, the insurance company decided towards a settlement and it was made without MJ’s approval. (see our wordpress blog, Payout: Plain and Simple.) Evan could no longer use the paper he made June sign in July because the judge had ruled it was null and void.

Dr. Gardner’s conclusion could have determined as much against the Chandlers in the case against MJ, but he also could have determined that both Evan and June were using Jordan against each other.  Feldman’s interests was in winning his case, so course he would have another review Dr. Gardner’s work if there was ANYTHING against EITHER Chandler.

Custody was an issue beyond the 1993 settlement.  Jordan had emancipated himself from HIS PARENTS when he was 16 years old, it is likely that they BOTH maintained joint custody after the settlement. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BhNd3C7dCc&feature=player_embedded)  However, Evan said that June would only see her son IF HE ALLOWED IT.   There was a series of litigation between the Chandlers and the Schwartz after the settlement- to which the conversation between Evan and David was used.  Clearly, there were all kinds of things going on to entertain your mind.  Evan had described such hatred towards June in his taped conversation with David Schwartz by calling her pathological and a liar to say the least.  The fact that in the 2005 MJ trial, June Chandler stated that she had not spoken to her son in 11 years (11 years brings it back to 1994) which means Jordan distanced himself from HER, surely with Evan’s assistance, just as he said he would.  He said June would only see her son IF HE ALLOWED it.  After the settlement,  June and David sued Evan Chandler, Evan sued them, they all turned on each other.  They all split their marriages and David sued Evan once more for “breaking up his family”.  David and Evan had a physical altercation when he supposedly told Evan regarding the 1993 settlement, “it was extortion”, all hell broke loose………Sound familiar?

So as you read the interview between Jordan and Dr. Gardner, it is extremely important to be cognizant to all the history and details of events- especially the conversations between Schwartz and Evan.  Evan stated very clearly in those conversations what he was planning and why.  None of it had to do with molestation but with custody over Jordan and how Evan wanted to hurt June and Jordan because they alienated HIM from Jordan and MJ.  MJ was Evan’s ticket to career support in the industry…and Evan owed a hell of a lot of money to people.  So you see, it is not enough to know there was a settlement in 1993 and considering the media did not report the truth in its entirety, it is no wonder some feel MJ was guilty.

As you are reading the interview, pay close attention to HOW Jordan expressed his words.  There are some distinct passages that Jordan says in the Gardner interview that were directly the same comments Evan made in the Schwartz-Chandler taped conversations.  This would distinctly indicate influence, coaching by an adult, and also that the accusations about MJ were predicated on lies.  We have no way of knowing the interaction between Dr. Gardner and Jordan’s parents as those conversations are not available, however, we do have a transcript between Schwartz and Chandler which Evan Chandler explained himself using very distinct phrases.  Those phrases and beliefs Evan had were similar things JORDAN expressed, almost at times verbatim.  Whether the doctor picked up on the “coaching aspect” or not is inconclusive because the “conclusion” from the interviews are not available; we only express the possibility.  Nonetheless, whatever Dr. Gardner would say in his conclusion, recommendations at the end of the evaluation of the interviews, would have been valuable to Evan and his implementation to the plan.  This could be why the conclusion was omitted from that site- they did not want us to know the doctor’s conclusions, considering the other content on that site was Anti-MJ and they posted anything that would “prove” MJ’s guilt.

Jordan did not verbalize that he had any real disturbances- such as inability to concentrate in school, lack sleep, nightmares,  PTSD symptoms, fear about places or people, eating disorders, hostile or aggressive behaviors, dissociative/social problematic behaviors, anxiety/depression, seductive inappropriate behaviors to others, unusual activities, advanced sexual knowledge for his age, or antisocial behaviors.   ALL these appear absent in Jordan at least verbally in this interview because Jordan never expressed them- even when asked; he instead expressed the views Evan stated in the Schwartz-Chandler conversations. (You will see it when you read it)

On the civil suit statement, Jordan wrote about emotional damages, almost verbatim as how he talked with Dr. Gardner.  This information would have been necessary when it came time to write up the civil suit regarding “negligence”.  The words Jordan used to explain about “MJ using his power”, and the “guilt trips” were expressions used by EVAN during the conversations with SCHWARTZ.  But you see, these were EVAN’s issues and thoughts, not Jordan’s.  You will see how Jordan expressed Evan’s issues, which means, Jordan WAS coached and influenced by Evan.  Also, when the Schwartz-Chandler tapes were played to Pellicano on July 9, 1993, Jordan stated that MJ never harmed him in any way and when asked by Pellicano whether he realized how serious it was that Evan was lying about molestation, Jordan stated to him that “he knew; his dad was just trying to get money”.  (A. Jones, 2007)

Here is the thing about the truth.  When someone recalls the truth, the general gist will be consistent, as well as certain details, but NO ONE remembers verbatim from one situation to the next upon later recollections.  In other words, it is unnatural for someone to explain the same event with the same words and phrases unless they are scripted, consciously memorized.

You will note this happening with Jordan as he went through this interview- he was using some of Evan’s terminology, explanations and viewpoints.  When Jordan was talking about alleged “sexual” content, notice that he did not talk the way normal teenagers speak.  The words he used were distant, clinical, almost like how he would express himself as if writing a screenplay.  It is almost like he may have studied some psychology as he used some terminology in psychology-like phrases, especially in his “explanations”.    He phrased his expressions with such distance, as scientific observer and not one who had experienced what he was saying.   Jordan did not “attach himself” representative of his words to the events that he was relaying.  That means, cognitively, there was a disassociation between him and some of his “memories”.   Also, He made a point to distant himself in any kind of emotional attachment or likeness to and from MJ, such as if it were a “one sided relationship” and  as when he described activities, he would say “MJ liked to talk about video games” (when Jordan liked video games also, but never did he say he enjoyed the same as MJ.)   He described MJ as being a self-centered, selfish, manipulative and controlling person, but yet Jordan continued to visit MJ any chance he got.  He WANTED to spend time with MJ and he often chose to visit him, even what Jordan was supposed to be visiting his father.  Behaviors such as these do not indicate Jordan had genuine responses.

You will notice at times when Jordan would have no difficulty in setting boundaries with Dr. Gardner, as well as how he did not have any difficulty in telling his father when to back off, but when Jordan relayed “sexual” events, he presented himself as submissive, which is an unnatural behavioral incompatibility from the times when Jordan had little difficulty in setting and keeping boundaries previously.  (Remember, Evan said that Jordan was not talking to him and complained he got nothing for Father’s day in the Schwartz-Chandler conversations. When Jordan wanted to stay away from his father, no one could talk him into talking to him.)  You can tell he was “trying to remember” what to say and when, wanted to control the interview so that he could say things in a certain way, perhaps in order to “remember” as he practiced.  He would make statements about something, but then when explaining, he would say “I think, I don’t remember, I don’t know.” when trying to back it up.  This major incompatibility of behavior that indicates that he was just simply making statements without having anything concrete to support them.  Behaviorally speaking, it means that his story was fabricated. Evan made it clear in the Schwartz-Chandler conversations that he was heavily schooled and educated on what to say, what to do, and it was likely that he would have wanted anyone else in on the plan to be as instructed.  Evan stated he did not want to say or do anything that would mess up the plan, so it is motivation for him to have everyone working in on it to be as instructed as he was.

Remember, Jordan co-wrote “Robin Hood: Men in Tights” with his father, which was a screenplay filled with sexual content/jokes and homophobic jokes.  Jordan stated certain sexual things that claiming that MJ introduced him to sexuality, yet Jordan was able to write a script filled with homophobic and sexual jokes with his father.  Jordan stated a few things that would indicate a contradiction to not only boys his age, but also his maturity regarding his knowledge of sexual content.  He wanted to make it seem like MJ introduced him to it all, but that is not true.  None of Jordan’s statements were validated by any of his “explanations” because he would say “I think, I don’t know, I don’t remember.” when it came to explaining details.  Another aspect was that Jordan would say those types of statements and ask the doctor to ask his parents to fill in “what he did not remember”.  His parents would not know, but it allowed them to appear like they could validate one another.  Keep these aspects in mind as you read this analysis.  Believe as you will.

Having that been said, let’s evaluate the interview.  My comments will be in bold the text will be ‘un-bolded.”   Dr. Gardner’s questions will be underlined and Jordan’s answers will be italicized.

Psychiatric Interview with Jordie Chandler

(October 6, 1993)

In October of 1993 Larry Feldman sent Jordie to New York to be interviewed by the man, Dr. Richard Gardner, the nation’s leading authority on false claims of child abuse. More often than not Dr. Gardner appears as an expert witness for the defense.

(The introduction to the interview appears to be a synopsis of the initial starting point of the interview.  Dr. Gardner would not have referred to himself as a leading authority on anything when introducing himself in an interview.  “Dr. Gardner appears as an expert witness for the defense” is also not a self-introduction.  It seems that that author of the site did not post the initial introduction and beginning to Dr. Gardner’s interview with Jordan.  The introduction in an interview entails many questions and dialogue a little difficult to describe in a few sentences.  The point is, the author of the site edited the first part of the interview and omitted the conclusion.  The question is, what else did they omit?  The beginning to the interview is as important as the rest.)

Gardner put Jordie through a battery of psychological tests, written and oral, including a face to face interview. What follows is a transcript of that interview. Information appearing in brackets [ ] was added to aid in following the timeline of the book. The symbol //////// designates a deleted segment, either idle chit chat or a detailed description of sex acts. Most of the “ums,” “ers,” and repeated phrases have been omitted in the interest of clarity and brevity. And the names of other boys have been changed to protect their privacy.

First there was an introductory period in which Gardner explained to Jordie that there were some who claimed he might be lying, and that one of the purposes of the interview was to find out the truth. Gardner also informed Jordie how important it was that they be honest with each other. Jordie asked Gardner a few personal questions, making it clear that he was trying to find out if the psychiatrist liked children.

(It is common for someone to be put through a battery testing pre-interview.  This stage determines whether the individual has any cognitive dysfunction or underlying psychological disorder that is undiagnosed.  It would not be fair or ethical to conduct an interview without a preliminary psych evaluation.  Dr. Gardner’s statement to honesty demonstrates to Jordan that it is expected and that it should be construed as reciprocal.  This develops a level of trust between them to speak freely and it also inadvertently alludes that it is honesty that will be evaluated.)

After Jordie had relaxed, Dr. Gardner began his interview. They started with the chance encounters between Jordie and Michael prior to their meeting in 1992 (see All That Glitters). Then . . .

(The interview article on the site was about the interview between Jordan Chandler and Dr. Gardner which took place on October 6, 1993, why would “All that Glitters” be inserted into the interview as if it were dialogue when the book had not even been written yet?  The book was not written until 2004 WELL AFTER the 1993 settlement in 1994!  Here is an indication that the owner of the site may have some kind of vested interest to advertize Ray Chandler’s book.  Course, any MJ hater would love to express anything against MJ’s innocence, however, it was the Chandlers’ reputations that were at stake in that book.  There is NO way that the book which had not been written yet would have been included in the interview between Dr. Gardner and Jordan.  This part was an edit within the posting of the interview between Dr. Gardner and Jordan made by the owner of the site.

All That Glitters is a book written by Ray Chandler, Jordan’s uncle. Many of you know that RC had gone on TV interviews advertising his book.  He declared that MJ was guilty and said that the book was a written account of MJ’s guilt, course, based on the “fact” that RC had been “witness” during that time.  But when it came time for RC to stand up next to his book in court, under oath, he  gave 70 pages of reasons as to why he did not have to defend his book.  He further said that nothing in the book would be beneficial to the 2005 case.  http://www.mjfacts.info/resources/102504nommot3rdpty.pdf  Pay attention to Ray’s words in his quash; he contradicted every interview and every statement he had said in interviews about MJ and that 1993 case.  Ray demonstrated that his book was nothing but BS against MJ.)

“Okay,” Dr. Gardner asked. “At age twelve and a half, May ‘92, what happened then?”

(Considering they had not gotten to the purpose of the interview….its just a filler- open ended question.)

“I met him at Mr. Schwartz’s (car rental agency),” Jordie answered, and went on to explain how it happened, ending with this. “And then my stepfather took him [Michael] outside to choose a car for him to use. And I guess when my stepfather was outside he said, ‘You don’t have to pay for the car if you just take Jordie’s number and give him a call.'”

“Why would your stepfather say that?”

(It is a little curious that Jordan would first call his step-father Mr. Schwartz.  If Dr. Gardner wanted to know his step-father’s name, he could have asked.  Notice the phrasing is FORMAL when Jordan does not have to be.  He is in a closed interview where he is talking to a therapist- it is just him and Dr. Gardner in the room.  Most teenagers would say “my stepfather” rather than their formal name.  One could argue that Jordan may have been nervous to talk to someone new, however, even so, most teenagers would still use “My stepfather” rather than their formal name.

There are a series of question like this to allow the child to explain the circumstances, however there is a reason to using this method as words used in his questioning to evaluate whether Jordan was “coached” by adults previous to this interview.  Jordan’s words are rather formal and already with some distance and stiffness.  Furthermore, if a psychologist were to write up a report about someone and they mentioned “stepfather”, the author would be using their formal name with the relationship indicator in parentheses or the other way around.  Unless you have seen a psych evaluation, you may not know how professionals phrase events.  This gives me the indication that Jordan had read psych reports previously.

To some, this may seem as a speculative question, however, understanding Dr. Gardner’s expertise, these types of questions do not surprise me and considering Dr. Gardner is assessing Jordan’s content to determine whether he was coached or not, it is a valid question.  You’ll understand more later on.  The questions are supposed to be “non-suggestive” to allow the child to explain in their own words what happened, however, since Dr. Gardner would want to see if the child was instructed on what to say or not, he would allow suggestion to see where Jordan takes it.  Whatever Jordan would say, either in support to the suggestion or not, would indicate not only how suggestible Jordan was, but also the content and exact words Jordan would use would determine either individual thought or whether Jordan was repeating what he was instructed to say- IF he was instructed to say anything, his words would match the adults statements who were instructing him.)

“Because my stepfather knows I was interested in Michael Jackson and his music.”

“And this was in your presence?”

“No. I was told this by my stepfather.”

(now Jordan began to refer to his stepfather as such.  This is more “normal speech” for a teenager and for someone talking more “personally” in an evaluation session.)

“So what happened then?”

“Then he [Michael] left.”

“Did he agree to the deal, Jackson?”

“Yeah.”

“Okay, then what happened?”

“I don’t remember how many days later, but he called me.”

“What did he say?”

“He said…I don’t really remember, but I remember the conversations we had on the phone around the early days of our relationship.”

(Jordan began to answer what MJ said, but then said he did not remember.  Why would he offer to reveal what MJ said if he in fact, did not remember like he said he could?  Notice when and with what questions Jordan uses “I don’t remember”- it’s important.)

“That was the beginning of the relationship, is that correct?”

“Right.”

(Dr. Gardner pointed out again, that Jordan was talking about the beginning of the relationship where Jordan said he could recall conversations.  Dr. Gardner appeared to have recognized the inconsistency to have asked this question.

It is not uncommon to “repeat” the answer in an interview- it demonstrates listening and understanding during an interview. But it also serves another purpose, to ensure that what the person said was what they meant to express.  This is important to remember, because it has an evaluation purpose.

However, the doctor was listening and noticed that Jordan said he could remember the phone calls in the beginning of the relationship (when he said he did not remember).  But it also established that what Jordan stated was a conscious thought, something Jordan repeated again.  It means he was not misunderstood and that whatever Jordan said, that he INTENDED to say and mean as interpreted.  However, Jordan’s answer is inconsistent with what he said and what he did. Jordan stated he could remember conversations at the beginning of the relationship, but then he DID NOT remember.  

It means, Dr. Gardner was aware of what he just said- perhaps in more ways than one.)

“How long did the first call last?”

“I don’t remember. I don’t remember the very first call.”

“In this first phase, let’s call it the telephone call phase. I would like to try to break it down into phases. This first phase was started around May of ’92; that phase which was confined just to telephone calls. How long did that phase last?”

(Dr. Gardner now made a suggestion, by definition, of how to express something based on that definition. 

Jordan just contradicted himself when he said he did not remember the first call, when he claimed he could initially. Some may argue that what I just wrote is too strict against a teenager, but Jordan opened the door to talking about phone calls and said he remembered the beginning calls, so you might think he would have remembered the first ones, considering that IS what Jordan just claimed. Jordan was the first one to bring up phone calls, saying that he remembered the earlier ones, but then did not recall much content to any phone call between him and MJ.

Again, there is a clinical reason as to why Dr. Gardner suggested to separate this into stages- that is to determine whether a “pedophile-type” pattern existed.    But here you see the psychiatrist suggested that whatever Jordan said was “broken down into ‘stages'”.  Please notice that explaining in “stages” was NOT Jordan’s initial way of relaying what happened, it is the Dr.’s suggestion. As you can see, Jordan had explained up until this point without using stages.  Dr. Gardner not only introduced talking about it in stages, but defined WHAT the stage would be: in this first case, phone calls only.  It would show how suggestible Jordan was.

This is important because  when Jordan made his declaration in Dec. 1993, Jordan explained by using STAGES as opposed to his own way to explain what “happened” to him.  This is a sign of proof that the Chandlers used Gardner as practice ground, a coaching opportunity, and to gain some insight as to HOW to explain based on a PROFESSIONAL standpoint.  Simply put, this is direct evidence that Evan was using professionals not only for advice, but for REHEARSAL. Jordan stated in the declaration what happened, stage by stage, in sequence, as a mirror to the conversation Jordan had with Dr. Gardner.  (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/jacko-original-child-abuse-allegations)  You can compare the flow of this interview with the Declaration Jordan made in December 1993.  Suggestions of stages were made by Dr. Gardner as well as other aspects.  There are minor differences, such as dates, and in this interview, you will see that Jordan requested that June would remember the dates.  By expressing it this way, it made it APPEAR to have continuity and truth.  Just because someone said the same you do, because it is repeated, does not make it a true fact.

This is evidence that Chandlers were using professionals to strengthen their case and if all this was based on truth, one does not need to rehearse or be coached with the purpose of increasing possibility that it would be believed.  Chandlers were TRYING to be consistent and they NEEDED practice to do it, which means, the content of what they were practicing was not based on truth.  The truth is naturally consistent basically and generally.  A person does not have to practice recalling truth generally speaking.)

“I would say sometime in late January of this year [1993].”

“How often were the calls during this phase?”

“Well, see, he went on tour during the summer so that was when I got off of school, so I would say June or so. But before that he called – – I don’t know, I don’t want to guess wrong. I don’t know.”

(“I would say?” Then he stated he did not want to guess wrong, but what he was doing WAS guessing.

Jordan did not directly answer the questions at times. He said the calls began in January and then jumped to June. Jordan was saying that the phone phase lasted from May 1992 until January 1993, then said before June.  So did the “phone call stage” only last until January or until June?? He was not clear.  January to June is a long time and quite a discrepancy in time.  Sure, calls would have lasted throughout until the end of the relationship, however, remember, Dr. Gardner was evaluating honesty, integrity, susceptibility to suggestion, false accusations and coaching.

Peculiar that Jordan said “I don’t want to guess wrong.” because he used phrases like “I would say, I don’t know/remember”, which is not definitive, so again, he WAS guessing- just what he said he did not want to do.

Keep in mind that the truth simply just IS what it is, however it is.  Cognitively, it represents dissonant thoughts Jordan had about “telling his truth”.  He knew he was not being truthful and it is possible he said that because he did not want to mess up his father’s plan.  Clearly it demonstrated that Jordan was consciously aware that what he says or doesn’t say can have a determining factor to whether his story is believed.  Jordan was doing what his father wanted him to do and “did not want to be wrong” because if HE messed up, who knows what his father would have done to him.)

“If you could guess the total number of calls during that first phase, over that seven or eight month period?”

“I don’t know. Do you think I could tell you – get more specific in the phase – and let’s see there? So, well, I remember – – he called over there at my dad’s house but my step-father had gave him my mom’s number.”

(Jordan stated IDK, but then answered impertinent information to the question asked.  The doctor asked about phase length, and he answered no, and offered information from which number MJ called. Then he made a suggestion for the Doctor to “get more specific in the phase”…prompting HIM to ask the questions??  And “Let’s see there?” WTH? It is possible that he was nervous, but it was possible Jordan trying to “remember” what was practiced.  What gives me that indication this early on is that he was not willing to spontaneously recall, wanted prompting by direction, and then guided the conversation himself to “what he knew”.  If he did not know how many calls, he could have just said so and stayed with it, what would it matter WHERE MJ called him? Notice too that Jordan never stated whether Jordan himself called MJ.  He conveniently left that out (and was not asked).

But you see, he SAID he did not want to be wrong, but continued to GUESS.  And it seems, Jordan wanted the Dr. to GUIDE him to the answers?  This aspect does not inspire much confidence that whatever Jordan would say was the truth but it does demonstrate he was being careful.  See the difference.  It is appearing that he just said things to say it, due to lack of definitiveness and spontaneity … and lack of natural conversation.

He could have stayed with IDK- considering he did not “want to be wrong”, however, he “searched his mind”, wanted prompting, which indicates that he is looking to find an answer that was suitable.  When he could not find one, he offered other information.  The fact that Jordan continued to guess speaks volumes.)

“You were living primarily with your mother at that point.”

“Yes.”

“Okay.”

“And so, I assume he – – I can’t really remember but I assume he was used to calling my mother’s house. And so he called my dad’s house. I don’t know, I think my mother gave him the number. We spoke for, I remember, for like three hours.”

(Jordan did not exactly answer the previous important question, but offered WHERE MJ would call him, when it was not asked.  Jordan ASSUMED MJ “was used to calling his mother’s house.  And so he called my dad’s house… IDK….I think my mother gave him the number…We spoke for, I remember, like three hours.”  This would give me the second impression that Jordan was working from a scripted story, one which he could not “remember” unless it went sequentially as practiced.  Again, would it matter much where MJ called him most?  To Evan and his plan YES, it would matter.  Evan did not want to appear as a responsible parent – one that was “responsible” or liable considering he had gotten professional advice on “how to report abuse without liability to a parent” from Rothman.  Jordan seemed to have wanted prompting or some questions asked, or present a direction he wanted to go in for the conversation to go a certain way.  For someone who said he did not want to guess, he phrased many sentences with “I think”, “I don’t remember” and “I don’t know” so he continued to guess, which he said he did not want to do.  Jordan makes a statement then followed up with “I think..IDK, I don’t remember” with some explanation.  Jordan did not give concrete explanations with distinction, definitiveness, or assertiveness.  In all actuality, it would not matter much WHERE MJ would call Jordan, but you see, Jordan made it seem like Jordan did not initiate any phone calls by omitting whether Jordan called MJ or not.  I am astonished though that Dr. Gardner did not ask.

He could hardly remember timing before, but he remembered that one call was three hours?  Sure some aspects can stand out in your mind more than others, but Jordan opened the door about phone calls, and yet he demonstrated continually that he can hardly remember anything like he said he could recall about them.

Remember what the doctor was evaluating: whether Jordan is susceptible to suggestions and whether he can be lead to answer by mere suggestions, to determine false allegation and coaching. So far, Jordan was susceptible to the suggestion of stages and also guessing, especially when asked.  The ability to assume what someone else is thinking demonstrates there is a tendency to fill in information rationally- which is more of an adult ability, and so nonetheless higher cognitive function for a 13 year old, but because Jordan had some experience in screenwriting, he acquired that ability at a young age.  However, assuming, in some way, is relative to what a screenwriter would do when writing.  Jordan had some experience in screenwriting, where one would make up a story, and guess, assume what the actions would be from each person in the story- and they can “assume” as in “assuming a role”.  When Dr. Gardner interprets his evaluation, these factors will have some clinical value as to maturity developmentally Jordan is for his age to evaluate cognitive ability regarding abuse, truth/integrity and levels of boundaries against Jordan’s past experiences to which Dr. Gardner is privy. )

“You had conversations for three hours?”

“Well, that one call.”

(This statement established that it was not usual for phone calls between MJ and Jordan to be that long – this act is rather contrary to “pedophile profile”.  A pedophile would want to “spend” as much time as they could with a child they targeted.  MJ spent much time AWAY from Jordan, that is not spending every possible moment with him.  He had gone away in 92 on tour without taking Jordan with him at times and was not available to Jordan at times during 1993.  1993 was a very busy year for MJ as he was preparing to go on the Dangerous tour and some music videos had come out during that time also.  Jordan did not state whether he had attended any of MJ’s rehearsals, so it is very possible that Jordan didn’t attend any.  MJ did invite Jordan and June to go on tour with him in August and had taken them to Europe when he attended the Music Awards in Monaco in May.  Jordan made it seem like he was spending every waking moment with MJ when in reality, it was an exaggeration.  MJ visited other families and spent time with them on weekends too- families who NEVER claimed MJ ever did anything wrong. )

“There was one phone call for three-hours; we’re talking about the telephone phase now.”

“Well, I’m trying to be specific and then when I’m finished – – ”

“Was it all in that time frame now, I want to stick with that time frame?”

“Right, I know, well I have to remember what happened.”

(“trying to be specific and when he is finished”…???  He knew the Doctor wants to stick with that time frame, ok, but…  here, he demonstrated he wanted to control what was said when and how. 

At this point he was trying to “search his mind” whether something needs to be added for when he is “finished”, because simply it would give him time to think through avoiding answering at that moment, but it is clear Jordan wants to express himself in a certain way as well as having some control as to what and when he expressed, hence the “when I am finished”.  This is another indication to remembering like a script or something that was practiced as he needed more time to “remember”.

Control.  It is not unnatural for a 13 year old to want some independence, make some decisions and have control and Jordan was exerting the desire to have that ability as he was speaking to Dr. Gardner. For Jordan to aggressively assert his autonomy over the doctor is an indication that Jordan felt he was controlled by adults behaviorally speaking.  When Jordan stated “well, I have to remember what happened” demonstrated that he was struggling to remember WHAT TO SAY.  This is but one example of Jordan trying to remember and struggling within his mind to make something out of what he cognitively realized was NOTHING.  It is an indication of pressure within Jordan’s mind.  It also represents behaviorally, trying to remember by script as opposed to spontaneous memory.  When you are telling the truth, you don’t have to remember “with much labor”.  In other words, the truth is effortless.)

**Remember Jordan said that he did not want to “be wrong” and usually, one does not have to struggle so much to remember truth when there was no mind altering substances to impair recollection.   Remember, this child alleged he was molested by MJ and there were no intoxicating substances in his time with MJ. Interestingly, the questions asked by Dr. Gardner at this point in the conversation were increasingly suggestive…remember that usually, responses should be spontaneous, not labored recollection.  This is a “molestation case” and Jordan was not a 6 year old child who could not tell what was appropriate contact or not but yet, he and Dr. Gardner were discussing the events as if to already believe that the contact was inappropriate.  Jordan was making it seem that it was inappropriate even though in his own mind, at the time he “thought nothing of it”. ***

“Sure, but I’m going to interrupt you to clarify. Was there more than one three-hour telephone call during the telephone phase?”

(trying to establish whether there was a pattern, to check for consistency, it is why he asks again.)

“Yes.”

(At the beginning, he said there was only that one call that lasted that long and he changed his story twice or so.)

“About how many, roughly, were there?”

“I don’t know, it could be – – ”

(COULD BE?? It’s not definitive; here Jordan is looking to give him the “right answers” leaning into the suggestion that there MUST have been more conversations that lasted three hours or more.  Dr. Gardner kept on asking him, so it is possible that Jordan assumed that as a suggestion.  Jordan stated earlier that there was ONE conversation that long, now he changed his story.  But you see how suggestible Jordan was to giving answers that he thought were acceptable?)

“More than ten? Was it roughly 5-10 such calls to the best of your ability? Would that be an accurate statement?”

(Inaudible.)

“Okay, that’s all. I don’t expect you to (inaudible) but if you could narrow it down to a rough guess and we’re able to indicate that that’s a guess then that’s fine.”

(Now Dr. Gardner gave a suggestion that the number of calls lasting that long were 10 or more.  Jordan backed off from giving a number.  A child/teenager should never be pressured to “give any answers” and whatever is a “guess” should be indicated as such, but Dr. Gardner should not have encouraged guessing or “speculative” answers.  However, Dr. Gardner’s specialty was determining false allegations, susceptibility to suggestion and coaching and so there was a method to why he was asking questions as he was.  The answers Jordan gave would be compared to the times when Dr. Gardner spoke with his parents and whatever Jordan said earlier in the interview. You will notice that Dr. Gardner had asked Jordan at times, questions he asked previously.  By doing so, Dr. Gardner is checking for consistency.  If you notice, Dr. Gardner changes the phrasing to ask the same question, sometimes not, and when he does that, Jordan at times gives different answers.  Different answers that cannot exist for the same circumstance and so this is how Dr. Gardner will be able to assess consistency, honesty and how much Jordan was willing to be forthcoming.)

“Okay, well – – ”

“What would you talk about in these three-hour conversations?”

“He would talk about things he likes to do.”

“Like what?”

“Like video games. He’d talk about things he has at his Neverland Ranch.”

(A one-sided conversation and relationship? By how Jordan expressed himself,  Jordan was laying the groundwork that MJ was a self-centered, selfish person by saying they would only talk about what MJ wanted to talk about as if Jordan did not participate in the conversation and just let MJ talk.  See how Jordan left out the other side of their relationship- Jordan’s participation.  Jordan left out whether HE liked talking to MJ, or if they talked about things Jordan wanted to talk about. This is where Jordan separated himself from participation as well as any emotional attachment, but you see, Jordan CHOSE to talk to him, visit him, and participate in the relationship up until the end of the relationship.  Jordan consciously gave the impression that MJ MADE him visit, MADE him talk, MADE him engage in video games, conversations and other innocent activities.  Evan complained that Jordan wanted to visit MJ over seeing him.  Evan said that Jordan, June and MJ were selfish.  It is VERY unlikely that Jordan did not like his friendship with MJ.  He got to do things that he would not have otherwise done with his family, but you see, Jordan was consciously.)

“How is that spelled?”

“N-e-v-e-r-l-a-n-d.”

“He told me he had animals.”

“Did he tell you what animals he had?”

“Giraffes, elephants, a lion, horses, a petting zoo, and other animals. He had reptiles.”

“What other things did he say that he liked?”

“Playing water fights. He has this custom made water fight place.”

(Many know that MJ loves to engage with these activities; that is no crime nor is it abnormal.  Many adults enjoy these types of activities. Jordan was interested in these things as well.  Notice Jordan did not want to or offer to admit whether he enjoyed doing these with MJ.  I don’t know of ANY 13 year old who did not like video games, or some of the other activities mentioned, do you?  Remember, Jordan WANTED to spend time at Neverland, and he consistently chose to be with MJ over time he was supposed to spend with his father.  NO ONE forced him to go to see MJ.  He decided to all on his own. 

People do like to talk about activities they enjoy.  Jordan was making it appear as if MJ was selfish, self-centered and abnormal. Jordan did not say whether he enjoyed these activities with him, conveniently left that out, possibly to strengthen the notion that MJ was selfish or egocentric.  Jordan made a conscious decision to say it as he did.

  Remember, MJ stated he liked to be around children because they inspired him and because he did not have a chance to live out his childhood.  He loved children INNOCENTLY, and non-sexually.  He enjoyed spending time with children for many reasons, but as MJ stated repeatedly, it was never sexual in nature.  Nonetheless, I would not expect Dr. Gardner to have known what MJ said about children or activities he liked to do.)

“What is that like?”

“It’s sort of like a water-war zone.”

“Was it some kind of a pool or something like that?”

“No, it was structures built with water guns attached to it; all different things. It has an obstacle course.”

(Jordan can’t recall much about certain aspects, and then guessed about other things.  He remembered what activities were at MJ’s ranch…)

“What else did he talk about?”

“He talked about some of the friends he had.”

“What did he say about his friends?”

“Well, he talked about who some of his more famous friends were.”

“Like who?”

“Peter Davis.”

“And who was he?”

“He’s the kid from [deleted for privacy].”

“Was there anything special about that relationship at this time?”

“He said that Peter Davis was the kind of kid who likes to prank a lot, to prank people.”

“Was he involved in pranks with him?”

“Sort of. He said Peter Davis sort of coerced him into going along.”

“What other friends did he say he had?”

“Joshua Samuels, who was [deleted for privacy].”

“Joshua Samuels, who is he?”

“[Deleted for privacy], you know?”

“How old is Joshua Samuels now?”

“I don’t know; he could be [deleted for privacy].”

“And what did he say about Joshua Samuels?”

“That he was his friend and that was it.”

“In any of this period, was there anything sexual said?”

“No.”

(Jordan mentioned only children as MJ’s friends.  MJ had many friends of all ages, yet Jordan mentioned only the children.  Again, he was trying to make it seem like MJ only was interested in children as friends.  We know that MJ was a private person, so it is not likely he would talk like this to someone he barely knew, but the Doctor may not know anything like that about MJ.  It is likely that MJ may speak about certain people in his circle once he got to know someone.  MJ did speak very highly of his adult friends as well as some famous children in some interviews- and again, not that Dr. Gardner would have known any of this. Again, Jordan focused on children to make it appear abnormal and to appear that MJ only was interested in children.

Remember this: In the conversation Evan Chandler had with David Schwartz, EVAN said that MJ is selfish and evil and also made a comment about how much “good it would do MJ if he had a relationship with June”.  Evan did not say much to explain further, however, he meant it towards what he felt was some public opinion about MJ.  The media had long questioned MJ’s personal life, and so Evan harped on it.  Chandler spoke about how MJ “used his power and position” as influence over people.  His charm.  Said that MJ “was a user” and otherwise described him despicable person, though when everything was fine between everyone, Evan thought MJ “was a good guy”.  Chandler stated the he did not know whether his son and MJ had a sexual relationship and that whatever proof he had was NOT about molestation, but how Evan was alienated from everyone. (please refer to the Chandler conversations, part one and soon part 2) Keep these facts in mind.

Later on, Dr. Gardner tells Jordan that he will interview his parents again.  It is during that time that Dr. Gardner will be able to determine whether Jordan was coached by an adult, which is part of the doctor’s expertise. )

“Anything else that he’d talk about on the telephone during these conversations?”

“Other things that he had done at his ranch. He has a carnival sort of thing, a movie theater, some golf carts that you drive around in.”

“Would you say that that was the main topic of conversation, telling you about his Neverland?”

“Yeah.”

(Now Jordan was persistent that MJ was egotistical and self-centered to “only talk about” Neverland” and the establishments he had there.  Remember though, Jordan would consistently chose to visit MJ at Neverland (as well as anywhere else MJ invited him to go) and so therefore one can assume correctly he LIKED the activities that were there as well as being with MJ, otherwise, why go? No child would not spend time with someone who they did not like to spend time with.  Or teenager for this matter.  Many children and adults like movies and those other activities.  Again, making it seem abnormal for him to have it on his ranch.  MJ could not go out into the public to enjoy these activities without a mob-scene or without having to pay to buy out a whole movie theater, closing a shop, or other store to have peace. The fact is many celebrities have this issue.  So he built some of these on his ranch.  Nothing wrong with it.  MJ said he would enjoy the rides, even alone when he did not have guests.)

“And what were your reactions to that?”

“Well, for just a regular kid it seemed pretty fantastical and overwhelming. And also, he would tell me that Neverland is named after the place that Peter Pan was, because he thought that he was Peter Pan.”

(Of course, any child AND adult could be overwhelmed to be in a place as Neverland; for Jordan to say “for just a regular kid..” was his attempt to emphasize how amazing the place would be ONLY to people his age.  The reality is that anyone could have been overwhelmed when visiting Neverland.  Jordan was trying to make a normal reaction to mean something more; he was making something out of nothing.

MJ did not ever say he was Peter Pan, he said he was IN HIS HEART, which is NOT the same meaning as “believing he was Peter Pan”.  Without knowing what MJ said, the doctor should have said that we all have childhood stories that appeal to our hearts and soul.  Jordan was twisting it all to mean something negative.)

“He thought that he was Peter Pan?”

“Yeah. And he said that Neverland was a place where kids had the right-of-way, on the roads, had the dominance, sort of. Could have what you want when you want it.”

(As a whole, this is Jordan’s interpretation about Neverland, not MJ’s.  MJ did have some rules for children, as long as they were kind and certainly not unruly. But this was Jordan and Evan’s interest about doing what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it.  Jordan stated later in this interview how he did not like the rules at his mother’s home.  Evan also stated how “they wanted to do what they wanted to do and when they saw who would let them do it, they chose.” in the Schwartz-Chandler conversations.  Jordan was displacing and projecting here.

Neverland to MJ was his HOME -a private sanctuary- and he opened his home to sick children to bring them happiness, nothing more.  Again, this sentence will have more meaning when Jordan explains why he did not like to go to his mother’s house as he stated then that he did not like being there because she had rules and could not do as he wanted.  Evan wanted to make it seem like June allowed Jordan to do whatever he wanted and that obviously was not the case by admission of Jordan’s own words.  I’ll explain more later when we come to that part in the interview.  Also, the point of view Jordan presented here was similar to phrases and meaning that Evan stated in the conversations to Schwartz.)

“Is there anything else you can tell me about these conversations? We’re still talking about the telephone phase.”

“No, that’s about it. But after that, he went on tour in June and came back in early February, late January.”

“Oh, so in this time frame during the telephone phase from May ’92 to late January ‘93, he was on tour?”

“Except for (inaudible) May and I would say June.”

(Jordan finally cleared up what he said in the beginning about the phone call phase.  Why could he not have said this as clear then?  He had to go through all of the conversation in between to answer directly? How suspicious because he could remember at the time he relayed it, he just “said it right” this time.)

“And the tour lasted how long?”

“From I would say June to February.”

“So from June ’92 to February ’93, he was on tour? Is it correct to say then that these telephone calls were made from various parts of the world?

“Yeah.”

(“I would say’ – he is guessing again which was something Jordan said he did not want to do.  Since Dr. Gardner stated it was ok to guess, as long as it was noted as a guess, Jordan went with the suggestion that guessing is ok.

**The dates of the tour could have been checked anyways- this is incorrect, MJ’s tour was from late June 1992- December 1992 (not February), then August 1993-November 1993 when he had to then cancel the remainder…because of the Chandlers.**)

“Do you remember some of the countries?”

“Paris, Rome. I think he was in Turkey or something. I could be wrong about that.”

(Paris and Rome was the 1st part, Turkey was in the second part.)

“Okay, anything else you want to tell me about phase one?”

“Well, actually the first time – when I was at my dad’s and I spoke to him for three hours – he was at his apartment complex in Century City. We were trying to work out a time when I could go there and play with the video games.”

(Jordan remembered that there was a three hour conversation at his father’s house.  Now, at this point of the conversation, he could recall this better.)

“So there was an invitation extended?”

“Except it didn’t work out because – – ”

(Notice how he did not answer the question.  He just kept on with what he was going to say…)

“When was this to the best of your recollection?”

“May of ’92, he invited you to Century City?”

(Again, avoided the question of when and subsequently did not answer that question.  See how he just made a statement and had very little to back it up with anything verifiable?  That is not to say that this did not happen, it is just peculiar that he did not elaborate and answer the questions Dr. Gardner asked.)

“He has an apartment there which is called ‘The Hideout”.”

“Why is it called “The Hideout’?”

“Because it’s in a very public place but yet nobody knows he’s there.”

“He invited you with whom? Did he invite you with anybody else or was it you alone?”

“I don’t remember, I think – – I don’t know.”

(It is just remarkable how much Jordan cannot recall.  Again, we do know that Jordan did visit MJ at Century City because that was where Pellicano had met with MJ to talk about the Schwartz-Chandler tapes and Jordan and his sister, “Kelly” was with him.)

“Okay, but why didn’t it work out?”

“Because I had to study.”

“Now, anything else you can tell me about that time?”

/////////

(Nothing wrong with having a name to a place.  It was somewhere MJ could be in privacy as in away from the public, cameras and press.  Jordan stated it did not work out because he had to study, MJ obviously would NOT come between Jordan and his studies.  A pedophile does not have the same respect for children as MJ, as MJ would not come between a child and their education just to visit him.)

“You used the words before, that it was fantastic and overwhelming. What I want to know is, that between these calls, did you find yourself thinking about him a lot?”

“Uh-huh.”

“What kind of thoughts were you having?”

“Like, um, his house must be a great place, and everything.”

(This is not a thought about MJ, this is a thought about material things…)

“Did you dream about it?”

(Dreams indicate aspects in life which are important to us.)

“I don’t think so.”

“Did it in any way interfere with school work?”

“The calls?”

“Yeah, I mean when you’re talking to him you can’t do homework, but did it interfere with your concentrating on what you’re supposed to do, school, and things like that?”

“No.”

(This is an important question about school and interference because emotionally and cognitively, his answer is NO which means that whatever MJ and Jordan were doing did not interfere with school- so there was no emotional distress whenever Jordan spent with MJ or when he was not.  The emotional distress Jordan endured was about his parents!  It shows that MJ was no threat to him and a direct contradiction to when Jordan spoke about the alleged molestation.  NORMALLY, when there is a real molestation, the child will have some anxiety and sense of harm as they are remembering the situation as well as fears to be near the person who harmed him.  Jordan was not afraid to be around MJ, and in fact, wanted to see MJ any chance he was invited.  These are not the behaviors of a child who was harmed by molestation. Jordan is lacking in any emotion and this is abnormal in individuals who actually have been molested or those who honestly felt they were molested.   A common symptom is distraction in concentration.  The suggestion to say “did it interfere with concentration or school” would inadvertently reveal that this is a way to determine emotional distress and perhaps a suggestion.  Also, this line in question would help the doctor determine whether he had an unhealthy preoccupation to being at Neverland.  His answer was NO. So he was not bothered by his interactions with MJ to disturb him emotionally to impair functioning.  This is important to remember.)

“What were your parents’ reactions during all this time of that phase?”

“I don’t remember them thinking anything bad about it at all.”

(Both parents encouraged Jordan to spend time with MJ.  The only time it became a problem was when MJ did not include Evan as much as when he included June.  That certainly was NOT MJ’s fault.  If MJ did not want to spend time with Evan too, there was a reason for it, and it had nothing to do with Jordan.  MJ distanced himself from EVAN in June 1993.  He obviously sensed something to stay away, but MJ did spend time with June and Jordan – as well as Jordan’s other siblings- up until the July 9th, 1993.)

“So now the next phase would be starting in January of ‘93. Now you know better than I – – “

“That would be late January, early February.”

“Okay, let’s call that phase two. Now, you know better than I how to break down phases since this is from your life and your experiences. What would you like to set aside as phase two?”

(This is an important question because he was assessing Jordan’s level in boundaries, but more importantly, Jordan was going with the suggestion to “stages” quite wholeheartedly.  What is important to note is that Jordan was saying neither parent thought that it was bad for Jordan to be talking to MJ.  it covered time frame when everything was in agreement with Jordan spending time with MJ.  The situation did not fall apart until MJ distanced himself from Evan around June in 1993.  The custody battle was getting worse as time went by, but only increasingly as Evan was pining for time with MJ AND Jordan without the presence of June in the picture- verified by timing of events and what is known about that time frame.  Please refer to Chandler conversation, part 1)

“Maybe, we should call it the portion of seeing him. We could call it that.”

“Okay, seeing him. So that phase two begins with actual contact with him – when two human beings are together as opposed to over the phone.”

“Right.”

“That’s when phase two starts.”

“Actually, I think we should call it more of the early part of it, because, um, things got bad as it got intimate.”

(Jordan’s phrasing “as it got intimate”- Jordan claimed that MJ molested him. Molestation and “intimacy” are not congruent, for usually there is an unwilling participant for the interaction to be called “molestation” versus an intimate relationship.  This is a demonstration of Jordan distancing himself from any emotional attachment as well as involvement cognitively.  If Jordan had been molested, he surely would not be using the word “intimate” when describing “when things got bad”.  Most people do NOT equate molestation with intimacy, certainly not a REAL victim of molestation.)

“When you say it got bad, you mean what?”

“Sexual things happened.”

(So Jordan equates “sexual things” with intimacy?  Intimacy is usually a close relationship to which there is a close bond, not just pertaining to a personal one on one romantic kind of relationship, but intimacy implies consent.  Intimacy can be between friends, lovers, partners, or a group of people to which a bond is shared.  People in a group therapy can have an intimate bond, considering what is shared is personal, though non-sexual.  When Jordan used the word “intimate”, “sexual”, and relationship, he WANTED it to mean something inappropriate. Truth of the matter is:  victims of molestation would consider the matter PRIVATE and sensitive, but not “intimate”.  In a true case of molestation, the victim would NOT be using the word “intimate” because an intimate relationship implies consensual relations.)

“Okay. Let’s do this now. Let’s call phase two the phase when there was involvement with him- not through the telephone but you were with him together – but there was nothing sexual. Do you want to call that phase two?

“Yeah.”

“And then phase three would be sexual.”

“Yeah.”

(Remember phases and stages was how Jordan described the circumstances in his declaration.  This was not Jordan’s idea to describe it this way, stages/phases phrases were suggested by the doctor.  It is obvious that this conversation is guiding Jordan to talk about “what happened” in a sequential manner, by stages; a method Jordan USED when he made his declaration in December 1993. )

“Since you mentioned the sexual, and that’s, let’s say, around early February?”

“Yeah.”

(Here Jordan had stated that sexual behaviors happened in February 1993 but on July 9th 1993, Jordan stated to Pellicano that nothing ever happened between him and MJ sexually.  (A. Jones, 2007)  Now here, in talking to Dr. Gardner, all of a sudden, Jordan was saying that sexual things happened in early February that year, during which he had already agreed to define the early part in February as phase 2 as meeting with him where nothing happened, and now Jordan had contradicted himself with the definition of the phase he was trying to describe. 

There was no way for Dr. Gardner to know what Jordan said to Pellicano, however, just pointing out the inconsistencies to what is stated as Jordan stated it in the interview makes this observation an inconsistency on Jordan’s part.  Jordan stated earlier that “hugging” was later in February, and now he stated that sexual things happened at the beginning of February. Inconsistencies.)

“Early February ’93 to when?”

“I think maybe my mom would know, because that was during the Las Vegas trip, where it switched. That was the first trip.”

(Here there are some convoluted answers of the same questions Dr. Gardner asked Jordan earlier.  Now, you see, there is a cognitive disassociation between the timing and sexual event and this means his mind does not equate anything sexual happening at that time and place so he consciously MADE that association as he is speaking when it is asked.  If there were a natural association to the time, place and event, there would be almost no contemplation. 

HE THOUGHT HIS MOM WOULD KNOW?? It was alleged it did not happen in front of her, so how would she know anything sexual had occurred in that month?  Jordan was  working out the details as he was speaking!  Jordan maintained that MJ never harmed him until when he was under his father’s care in AUGUST.  This is a telling comment because though some children do not have a sense of time, they would remember events around the time- yet Jordan is never sure about when anything happened- he simply stated something happened, but would say “I think, I don’t know, I don’t remember” and he would consciously place the memories.  He said “My mom would know because that was during the LV trip, where it switched.”  If he was certain it happened then, he would not need his mother to confirm the time and place to what he said happened for him, especially since nothing happened in front of her to say it DID happen.  This IS an indication to the possibility that Jordan was coached on what to say, trying to make something out of nothing, making conscious associations (whereas naturally, the association was not there for him to have to work it verbally out to mean it that way), and he was looking to answer as expected to what would be accepted.)

“Okay, so that’s the best of your recollection. I’m going to speak to your mom and your dad later and they can fill me in on some of these details. That’s one of the reasons I have your mom in the next room so if there’s any discrepancies in details, I can get it from her. To the best of your knowledge – recollection – when was Las Vegas? Was it before the summer or after the summer?”

(Here is where Dr. Gardner said he will talk to his mother to compare and contrast the words she uses with Jordan’s words and depending on how the words are used, he would have been able to assess whether he was coached.  Dr. Gardner alluded that this was ok- but the process serves an evaluation purpose.   Remember what Dr. Gardner was evaluating: consistency, coaching, and false accusations.  Since he will interview BOTH parents, they will clear up discrepancies which will help him determine any coaching or falsehoods.  It was said that none of the sexual events happened in front of his parents, but yet, his parents were going to be the ones to clear up any “details”.   I realize they are talking about putting the alleged molestation events to the place and time Jordan said it happened, however, Jordan could simply say that something happened in Vegas, but it does not mean that it did happen.  Jordan wanted his parents to add that part for him so their stories matched or those were details that THEY were supposed to add in for him to make it sound like a legitimate circumstance.)

“I believe it was after the summer. After the summer of ’92 but not – – ”

“We’re in ’93.”

“Right. So it was before, like, I believe I had a break in school in February.”

“Okay, well you said that phase two started in February of ’93.”

“Early.”

“Early February of ’93.”

(The way Dr. Gardner is asking these questions is not only to get a time frame and understanding of what happened when, but also, to see whether Jordan’s answers would be consistent.  So far, some is not as consistent as it appears.)

//////

“You said something about Las Vegas. So you’re saying that something happened physically in Las Vegas? Is that what you’re saying?”

“Yeah, that’s when it started.”

“You started to sleep in his bed? Did you start to sleep in his bed in early February ’93?”

“No.”

“Was there a time frame where – – ”

“Sort of later February.”

(Jordan stated earlier that sexual things (remember which he said sleeping in the same bed he considered sexual) happened in early February, but now he said he did not sleep in the same bed until the end of February.  Now he kind of changed it to say “Sort of later February?  See how Jordan went from making a statement to a vague answer? The point is, if it really happened in Vegas and at that time, there would be no “sort of later February”, he would have simply stated “No, Late February”. “Sort of later February” was not definitive, but more like Jordan was trying to put the two situations together and remember it that way.  Behaviorally speaking, this means that Jordan was TRYING to place an event to something inappropriate when the truth was that nothing inappropriate happened. Jordan had no natural association, no natural cognitive association between the events and what he said happened, so he was TRYING to MAKE that association by verbally expressing it.  It means the story was FABRICATED.)

“So phase two might have been a very short time then?”

“Yeah.”

“Okay, I just wanted to get an idea when there was contact. See, in phase one, there was nothing sexual, right?”

“That’s right, in phase one.”

“In phase two, we’re still talking about nothing sexual but there was contact with him as human beings as opposed to the telephone. I would say, sleeping in bed, I’ll call that sexual. Some people might not but I would.”

(This suggestion was done for a reason.  Dr. Gardner suggested that sleeping in the same bed IS sexual, but really, it is not.  He is testing boundaries and how susceptible the child is to suggestion.  His question is extremely leading, and suggestive which is not typical in an interview.   Notice Jordan’s answer is next- indicated where it “switched”- he had a suggestion, took it and applied it to where in his mind it would fit.  Here, Dr. Gardner begins to define more details to stages and what would be examples of those stages.)

“Right, and I consider that too, and that’s where it switched.”

“Most people would consider it sexual to sleep in bed with a person. How long was the time frame from the time you first saw him in the flesh, and the time you slept in bed with him?”

(The doctor stated that “MOST people would consider it sexual”- it is VERY suggestive as Dr. Gardner reveals what would be defined as  a “social norm” violation in the doctor’s experience.   Jordan accepted his suggestion and went with it.)

“I don’t know.”

“But it was in February when you started sleeping in the bed with him.”

“Right, right. I’m really not even sure if it was in February, but – – “

“Okay, but phase two then was a short period.”

“Right.”

“Maybe about a month, or less then a month?”

“I don’t know.”

(Again, here is more of how Jordan was trying to MAKE associations between what really happened (nothing) and his accusations.  He said he was “not really sure if it was in February” and he just said moments before, that things happened in February.  Now Jordan stated that he was not sure whether it was February.  These are contradictions about the same events. 

Remember, he said he did not want to say anything wrong, but he was not stating clearly or consistently from one question to a later question about the same instance and was guessing a lot.  Jordan was trying to make the associations between the his accusations – things that did not happen- in association to true events that did occur.  If it were naturally true, as in an absolute truth, there would be no labored thinking to recall it. 

Remember, it was Dr. Gardner who made the suggestion that sleeping in the same bed was sexual and most people would consider it sexual to do so, but you know, most people actually SLEEP in bed, as in REM sleep.  Dr. Gardner made the suggestion that Jordan talk about it in stages, and Jordan was going along with those suggestions and defining it in Dr. Gardner’s terms and suggestions.  Jordan “worked it out” as he was talking to him, integrating Dr. Gardner’s suggestions, at times asking him to confirm with his parents, with events he supposedly remembered.  This means that Jordan WAS coached on what to say, and so behaviorally speaking, this is the evidence that he was trying to put together what he was told to say with Dr. Gardner’s suggestions in the interview. If these things naturally happened, Jordan would not have to consciously make those associations- he would simply express them NATURALLY.  Jordan was not expressing things naturally, he was putting things together as he was talking to Dr. Gardner.

Here is the thing about truth.  No matter what question is asked, no matter how it is phrased, the brain does not have to work so hard to associate what is asked to whatever they recall.  It just is relayed.  There is usually no “working it out” cognitively, because the brain already makes the associations without conscious thought.  Jordan was working way too hard to consciously make those associations.)

“Okay, we’ll put that in as a question mark. Now what I want to know is in that phase, what kinds of things did you do with him, before you slept in bed with him?”

“Well, we went to his Neverland.”

(notice Jordan did not directly answer the question.  He stated “well, we went to Neverland.  The doctor asked what kinds of things they did before sleeping in the same bed- such as activities.  Going to Neverland is a PLACE, MJ’s home.)

“Who’s we?”

“Me, my mother and Kelly, my sister, my half-sister.”

“What happened there?”

“Nothing happened. I slept in the guest area with my mother and Kelly, and Michael stayed in his room.”

“How long were you at Neverland?”

“I think for a weekend.”

“Do you know if it was Friday or Saturday or Sunday? Was it two days or three days?”

“I don’t know.”

“What did you do?”

“We went jet skiing on a small lake he has.”

“What else did you do there?”

“We saw the animals and played video games.”

“You did those things with him?”

“Yeah.”

“So these activities were with him? What other kind of activities did you do with him?”

“We took golf cart rides.”

“With Kelly and your mother?”

“Occasionally, like, half and half. They would go off sometimes.”

“Who’s they?”

“My mother and Kelly.”

“How many visits were there to Neverland in that time frame?”

“I don’t remember.”

“So we’re still in phase two now. Anything else besides the visits to Neverland in phase two?”

(See, he is pretty consistent in not knowing certain details he should know…but he easily recalled certain things at Neverland, gifts and video games, but not much of anything else- ie what they all did together pretty naturally? Can recall whole conversations (only the ones pertinent to MJ’s guilt, but not anything else?)… Do you See the difference?)

“We may have gone to the Century City apartment.”

“Who was with you?”

“Michael and I. I can’t remember if my mom (inaudible).”

“Then what happened? Is that the end of phase two? Were there calls during phase two?”

“Yeah.”

“Calls lasting three hours?”

“Yeah. Oh yeah, I just remembered. When we were at Neverland we went to Toys-R-Us, when it was closed. My sister and I could get anything we wanted.”

(Remember initially, Jordan stated that there was only one three hour phone call and he changed his answer, but could not recall content of those conversations like he said he could. On this recollection, he added material things- they went shopping.

Jordan said again, inferring that his mom would know.  Jordan did not “remember” anything according to time and place of what he did remember.  This is very telling because it means there are no cognitive associations naturally occurring regarding inappropriate events.  Jordan had to “create” the associations.  Keep in mind that Jordan said, he did not want to “guess” or “be wrong”, but he was guessing and not remembering pretty consistently.

Remember he said initially there was only one phone call lasting 3 hours… then he said there were more.  Now he “remembers” material things.  MJ was a generous person and gave to many people, and he had often bought people things when they went shopping, including adults.  In essence, MJ did not treat anyone differently, he was generous to everyone.  However, Jordan was trying to establish the possibility that his gifts were given to seduce him and not out of the kindness in his heart.  Evan stated in the Chandler-Schwartz conversations that MJ used his gifts as means of seduction, to “buy” people, or otherwise to “use his money” as power over people. Also, a motivator for Jordan was the aspect of “being able to do what he wanted when he wanted” something that Evan stated in the Schwartz-Chandler conversations.

Some of these were Evan’s suggestions regarding how he viewed MJ.  Evan was very expressive about it.  If Jordan was being coached by Evan, influenced by him, he would be making associations similar to his father’s words- and Jordan was using his father’s words.  Evan stated that MJ used his money and talents for power and Jordan never said such words until after August 17, 1993.  Please keep these details in mind as you are reading)

“They opened the store for him, is that it?”

“Right.”

“How much would you buy?”

“A lot. We got to take along shopping carts and fill them up.”

“Do you have any idea what the cost of that was?”

“No.”

“What kinds of things did you get, do you remember?”

“Video games (inaudible).”

(It is very common for people of all ages to like video games and moments ago, he had stated that MJ liked to talk about Video games.  Jordan stated MJ would talk about his {MJ’s) interests when asked about the content of their conversations, as if that was ALL they spoke about.  Jordan left out whether they spoke about Jordan’s interests, as if to give the impression he did not share the same interest.  Jordan consciously made that cognitive separation on purpose.  If Jordan had no interest in video games, why buy them?  If he had an interest, then he spoke about it.  Jordan just disclosed that he liked video games, so it is very possible he would enjoy talking about video games with him or anyone else.  Remember that Jordan enjoyed the time he spent with MJ for he would not have wanted to visit him when the opportunity presented itself.  Jordan was clear that he wanted to separate his interests from MJ’s.

Jordan wanted to have some control over the interview as indicated when he told Dr. Gardner that he would “have to remember what happened…and then when he was finished…”though Dr. Gardner did not allow him to finish that thought, nonetheless, it showed Jordan wanted control to what was revealed when.  If Jordan was being controlled, he would want to exert his control over what he did and said to others.  If he was coached on what to say, he would want to maintain that control also.  When Jordan said he would “have to remember what happened”, he was behaviorally being careful about what he said when.  When he exerted control over Dr. Gardner about what he would reveal when, he supported that care behaviorally.  Jordan said he “did not want to say anything wrong” and wanted to control what he said when so he would have some control so he would not say anything wrong.  The time between would give him moments to think and remember.  It’s too much of labored thoughts, which should not happen if what Jordan said was true. When relaying the truth, some may forget minor details, such as when much time goes by and they can have a memory lapse- however, the time of the interview and the time of the past events was only less than 6 months.  He should be able to recall these events easier than previous years, even a teenager.)

“Anything else in phase two?”

“No.”

(It is disturbing that he did not talk about the quality time spent with MJ.  Like he did not value that time he spent with him or remember the other things they did,  just remembered the games, activities, material things and only selectively remembering they talked about MJ’s likes and interests only.)

“Going back to phase one. I know you don’t have a record of the times he called you, but if you could guess offhand the total number of telephone calls in phase one, what would you say it was? Not only the three-hours calls, but the calls that were shorter as well, what would you say?”

“I believe ten.”

(Dr. Gardner bounced back and forth between the phases as means to test consistency by asking the same questions, sometimes phrased differently. Sometimes, Dr. Gardner introduced a variation of questions he previously asked, sometimes with suggestion, sometimes to ask for more detail.  The thing with Jordan was that when he was barely consistent and would provide explanations with I think, etc, IDK, I don’t remember when he previously recalled the answer.   When asked to give more detail, the same thing happened- he was barely consistent, saying: IDK, I don’t remember or I think.  It should not take that much effort to recall something when he gave some information previously.  He would remember statements, but when it came time to expand on that recall, he was forgetting his answers, and details.  That means he was NOT being truthful.

  Additionally, Jordan showed increasing susceptibility to suggestion when he said he did not want to say anything that would be wrong, but he was guessing as Dr. Gardner suggested it was ok. Notice the difference from his first answers to the same questions Dr. Gardner asked later.  Jordan now did not correct him to say, only one three hour call, but he changed his answer to a specific number and sometimes, that number even changed too. Jordan was guessing he “believed” were 10 calls.  Jordan filled in an answer he previously said he did not know.  Dr. Gardner was asking these questions multiple times and at different times to check for consistency, to which you see, there is not much consistency in his details or answers.  This is ONE way to test for consistency.)

“Now, let’s go into phase three.”

“Do you think phase three should be subdivided or would you just like to describe it as how things evolved?”

“I don’t really know because – – can we fill that question in later?”

“Sure.”

(Jordan suggests that he answer this question later, when he stated also he did not really know.  Given SOME room for genuine forgetting, however, Jordan would not recall what he said just a small amount of time ago. This suggests that Jordan was trying to remember by script or what he was told to say.  If things evolved as Jordan said they did, it would not matter what order he recalled them from.  But if he was trying to keep his “story consistent”, he would want to answer that question when it came up as he practiced it.  This is evidence of scripted “memory”- or practice.  Jordan had already switched some of his answers since the beginning of the conversation.  The only things Jordan was consistent was the fact he spoke to him on the phone and visited him at Neverland as well as MJ visiting him at his home.  All the other details are inconsistent.)

“Phase three began, I would say, when we were on the trip to Las Vegas. We stayed at the Mirage Hotel.”

(He “would say”?? Notice choice of words- he WOULD say, or DID he say as in a declarative statement? If phase three began during Las Vegas, he would be definitive, certain, and his words should have reflected that.  But you see, Jordan made the accusations against MJ only during when he was under Evan’s care and denied MJ did any misconduct distinctively before he was in Evan’s custody, cognitively and behaviorally, when he spoke to Pellicano.  It is important to read Jordan talking about it here and in this way because it is clear that he was consciously trying to CREATE associations during the conversation with Dr. Gardner.)

“On a trip, and to the best of your recollection that was when?”

“I can’t really remember. I think late February or so.”

“Okay, that was after the trip to Neverland, after the Toys-R-Us. In Century City, did anything special happen?”

“No, not that I can remember. We just played video games.”

“He had the video games there?” “When you say we, who was we?”

“My mother, Kelly and I.”

[Sort break].

“What happened in Las Vegas?”

(“What happened in LV” is the kind of question given in an interview- open-ended, without prompting or suggestion. 

Dr. Gardner asked Jordan whether anything “special” happened and he simply stated, “NO, not that I can remember, we just played video games.”  The time spent with MJ playing video games was not special to him?  As if everyone got to spend this time with MJ, like an every day thing people do?  Jordan may have interpreted the word “special” as referring to sexual contact, like all the associations he was TRYING to make through forced, conscious association as opposed to free recall.  Also, Jordan did not spend hardly any time with MJ in June, and only some in July, and the relationship was over when Pellicano and MJ heard the tape on July 9th, 1993.  Yet, Jordan stated that he would visit MJ “frequently”( without explanation to what frequently meant) and sleep in his bed from LV until the end of the relationship.  There was quite a bit of time in June where MJ and Jordan did not spend time together.  Phone calls, maybe, but not in physical presence.  Another contradiction in his claims.  Jordan did not talk about anything in June as of yet.

  This interview will demonstrate that it was used as means to gain education and practice, rather than a necessary therapeutic intervention.  This will be apparent when you compare this conversation to his declaration, where Jordan described the relationship in STAGES, as Dr. Gardner suggested it be discussed in this interview.)

“My mom and Kelly shared a room. Michael had his own room. It was a big suite.”

“Was Kelly in the same room with you?”

“No, with my mom, and I had my own room.”

“You had your room, Kelly and your Mom had a room, and Michael had a room.”

“That’s right.”

“Was it connected or in separate places? Was it one big suite?”

“It was a big suite, yeah.”

“Go ahead”

“Let’s see, one night – – “

“How long were you there?”

“I don’t know, maybe a week.”

“What happened that night?”

“After my mom and Kelly went to sleep, we went to watch the movie The Exorcist. We were in his room, in his bed. And when it was over I was scared, and he said, why don’t you just stay in here. And I did and nothing happened.”

“When you say you stayed in the room – – “

“Stayed in the same bed.”

“Slept in the same bed?”

“That’s right.”

“When you slept in the same bed was there any physical contact?”

“No.”

“Was it a big bed?”

“Yeah, I think so.”

“So there was no physical contact. What were your thoughts when he said let’s sleep in the same bed?”

“Well, I was scared, and I didn’t think anything was going to happen.”

(Jordan was quick to interrupt the doctor to say “they slept in the same bed”…. He “remembers” this, but does not remember how long they were there or hardly anything else? Oh, that’s right, Jordan had to “try to remember what happened”…   more like – he had to try to remember what he was supposed to say.  First he stated that MJ said Jordan could stay “in here” meaning in MJ’s big suite, then said that MJ asked him to stay in the same bed.  Jordan just kept on changing his story.

“…and I did not think anything was going to happen”.  While he did not describe what that “anything” would meant, Jordan knew that nothing was going to happen because MJ had not done anything to him ever.  MJ had Jordan’s trust – and vice versa- long before the LV trip.  Jordan wanted to spend time with MJ, and he chose to spend time with him any time he could.  Evan complained that one of the problems was that his son would choose to spend time with MJ rather than Evan.  Children do not want to spend time with people who harm them- they are wary of who they do not trust, but you see in Jordan’s behaviors, he trusted MJ and KNEW nothing would happen because HE decided to see MJ every chance he had.  Jordan stated in July that MJ did nothing to him, that is, until he was under Evan’s care.  )

“You were scared of him or scared of the movie?”

“The movie. So I said, ‘Okay, that’s fine.” It was like a regular slumber party.”

(Jordan said he was scared of the movie, so he SAID “ok that’s fine” – to what question?  It’s an odd and vague statement to make. 

“It was like Regular slumber party”….so Jordan expressed there are different kinds of slumber parties??  Jordan, a 13 year old??   How would Jordan know about things like that?  Evan stated in one part of the Schwartz conversations how his wife was away and at a place where he thought was known for orgies all weekend long, but yet, he said he trusted her going, because they can talk…. Perhaps Jordan got the idea from his father’s insecurities.  Secondly, the therm “slumber party” is usually a term that females use, not men.  He seems to have been implying something here about MJ’s identity as a man.

Jordan was setting the stage for the next part.)

“Okay, is there anything else to say about that event?”

“Just simply that we talked about how they got the idea for The Exorcist. So the next morning, I was with my mom alone and – – ”

“Did your mother know that you had slept in bed with him?”

“Well, I’m getting to that. I said, ‘I slept with Michael in the same bed last night,’ and she said, ‘Well, just don’t do it again’.”

(After Dr. Gardner asked Jordan about the content of their conversation, Jordan quickly answered they had talked about the how they got the idea for the movie, he immediately told the part when he told his mother that he slept in the same bed as MJ.  How did that sentence correlate with what he said just before that?  How odd is it that Jordan stated “I slept with Michael in the same bed last night and she said well don’t do it again”.  That is well scripted because it is odd they way he explained it.  Considering that “Slept with” has multiple meanings, it is odd that Jordan would phrase it that way when he knew nothing happened sexually between them.  He was backtracking and embellishing.

He went from relaying that they spoke about the idea for the Exorcist to what happened the next morning when he spoke to his mother…you see how Jordan completely controlled the flow from one to the next?  He can’t remember much of dates, times, but can remember activities and only some full fledged conversations?

 Convenient that he said he was alone with his mother when the conversation took place, because then, she would have been the only  witnesses.  Remember, Jordan said, anything that was missing, maybe his mother would know.  At this time, Jordan, June, his sister and MJ were all together on this trip and he happened to have been alone with her when he brought it up to her?  Where was his sister?  In the bathroom? Still sleeping? Conveniently in the other room while the “whole conversation” took place?)

“Did she speak to Michael at all?”

“Well, I’ll get to that. So when I told Michael the news of the fact that she said don’t do that again – don’t sleep in the same bed – we were alone, Michael and I, and he burst out in tears and said, ‘She can’t set up barricades like that,’ and ‘Nothing could happen, it’s just a simple slumber party type thing,’ and ‘There’s nothing wrong with it’.”

(Jordan wanted to control what he said when again- and also remembering such detail in a full conversation, when he could not remember other important but simple details.

Dr. Gardner asked him whether she spoke to MJ.  He could have simply answered yes and carry through the rest; instead, he said, “I’ll get to that” when this whole next part was about the very thing Dr. Gardner asked?  Buying time? Gathering his thoughts? “Trying” to remember?

He could have said, “I told mom this happened, she said don’t let it happen again.  Then, She spoke to MJ”….blah blah blah.  See, how unnatural the conversation went?  This is another indication that Jordan had been coached by someone to say it like he did.  He bought some time to remember what happened, and relayed it like a story rather than information.  I realize that Jordan was 13-14 at the time, and more likely to talk as if he were telling stories as a child may, however, a child would be direct and answer the question (unless it was something they wanted to hide).  Jordan was not a 6 year old, he was a teenager and therefore  able to answer simple questions and be able to formulate an adult like answer.  Jordan’s manner in this question indicates that he was coached to say it like that, otherwise, it would not matter what he got to when and just have answered the questions normally.  Dr. Gardner was asking questions all along and the only times Jordan asserted control, was when Dr. Gardner was getting ahead or asking questions “out of sequence”.  This is a strong indication to coaching as teenagers are usually all over the place when they talk about situations of the past, but when speaking about the truth, they are not confused to what happened when, no matter how they explain it.  Teenagers need time to formulate their thoughts sequentially, it is a higher developmental process, a social skill, that is not achieved until someone reaches near adulthood.  It is a high indication that he was coached on what to say whenJordan was protesting gently not to go out of sequence??  This indicates: Coaching, remembering as if from script.

“He said, nothing will happen, there’s nothing wrong with it, and it’s like a slumber party?”

“Right. And so, he came – – I don’t remember if I was crying or not but he decided that he had to confront my mom with his feelings about what she said. What he told me he said, ‘There’s nothing wrong with it, you should allow it because it’s simple and fun and you shouldn’t set up barricades.’ And he got my mom feeling so guilty that she just broke down in tears and decided that, okay, I believe you. And Michael somehow got her to agree that there would be no further questions asked. And so from that point on I was in his bed till the end of our relationship.”

(Here is a demonstration that he is telling it like a story, as most teenagers might, however, it is sequential.  Jordan stated here that MJ used the phrase, “its simple” with this context, he means it is innocent and when he says nothing will happen, he means NOTHING will happen that is not appropriate.  MJ has said it many times that his interactions with children were that of a caring person, friendship, nothing sexual ever.  But it was Jordan who implied there was a distinction between a slumber party and a regular one.

Jordan just ran with this one- using phrases similar to the meaning of Evan’s assessment of MJ.  EVAN said that MJ used his power over people, his charm, his money etc.- how Evan said that MJ would make people feel guilty as a behavior of his power and seduction. Evan said that MJ fooled him only after MJ distanced himself from him and Evan wanted MJ to spend time with him AND Jordan up until MJ distanced himself.  Evan wanted MJ to build an addition to their home or buy a bigger one for when he visited.  When that did not come to fruition, Evan began to be upset with MJ.  These words Jordan used were similar words to Evan’s expressions of MJ, not Jordan’s.  

Also In the declaration, Jordan did not recall any visits with MJ during the month of June.  If he visited MJ very frequently, he should have been asked what was meant by “frequently”.  Seeing someone a week at a time or a weekend in a month then not seeing them for a month or a few months or weeks apart is not frequent.  There were times where MJ did not see Jordan, as in say on a weekly basis.  So far, the months mentioned are February, the end of that month, May, June and July and the durations mentioned were a week or two, or a few days, or a weekend.  So you see, there is an importance to “frequent” and what is really meant by it.  He stated “frequently”, but did not explain HOW frequent that was.  Jordan stated that things happened up until the end of their relationship- which was July. The relationship ended in July because of the Chandler-Schwartz conversation that was played for Pellicano on July 9th.  Pellicano questioned Jordan on July 9th when Jordan stated that nothing sexual ever happened between him and MJ and that he knew that his dad was trying to get money. (Jones, A., 2007)  It means that Jordan was not telling the truth during the Dr. Gardner interview.

June stated in the month of June that she would never believe that MJ was harming Jordan.  June did not go along with anything Evan said until he threatened that she would never see her son again.  Here, Jordan is saying “MJ got my mom feeling guilty” and so how would he know how she felt right at that moment when it was not expressed at the time or expressed when he and his mom talked about it for him to know she thought MJ made her feel guilty?  Jordan said that MJ went to talk to his mother because Jordan was crying, but he did not remember if he did cry but yet he remembered that MJ decided to confront his mother again?  Once again, Evan stated that MJ used his charm and power over people.  These were Evan’s beliefs and expressions to justify his plan and he was using Jordan to express them to a professional to justify his plan.)

“So, are you saying from then on you were in his bed – – are you talking about the Las Vegas trip, or from then on all the time?”

“All the time.”

“You said to the best of your recollection the Las Vegas trip was one week. How many times did you sleep in his bed?”

“I’d say maybe two or three.”

(Out of a week long stay in Jordan’s own words, said that he slept in the same bed as MJ “all the time” (in answer to Dr. Gardner’s question) and then answered the next question, which was again, about sleeping in the same bed, he then changed his answer and said two or three times.  These are inconsistencies in his story that he just verbalized within seconds apart.  If it was true, then the answers to the two questions, which were the same in content, but asked differently, should have had the same answers.  But you see, Jordan said “all the time” and based on a week stay, he said he slept in the same bed two or three times.  Furthermore, in the declaration, he did not state that he visited MJ weekly, he stated “frequently”.  He means he lied or exaggerated about how many times he “stayed in the same bed”.)

“Okay, was there any physical contact?”

“No.”

“Was there any undressing in front of you?”

“No.”

“Did you undress in front of him?”

“No.”

“Okay, alright that’s Las Vegas. Are we finished with Las Vegas? Is there anything else to say about Las Vegas?”

“No, that’s it.”

“Okay, bring me to the next step then.”

“Well, when we got back to L.A. our friendship was a lot more close than when we had left, and so we saw each other more. And we quite frequently went up to his ranch.”

“And each time you were there you would sleep in bed with him?”

“Yeah. And my mom and Kelly would stay in that same guest place.”

“And how far was that guest place from the room you slept in?”

“It was far, it was quite a lot. Know where the bathrooms are? From here to the bathrooms.”

[Jordie is describing the distance from the interview room to the bathrooms in the building in which Dr. Gardner’s office is located.]

“That’s like a block away. It’s the equivalent of a city block.”

“No, it’s smaller than that.”

“Half a block away?”

“I can’t really remember, but that’s about right.”

“Okay, I would say that’s a few hundred feet.”

“Well, I don’t know, you should ask my mom.”

“It was in the same house?”

“No.”

“It was in a different house?”

“Yeah. It was like a guest complex and they stayed in that room.”

(He just said in the same guest place…..now he says it was not.  Dr. Gardner asked him about the guest house and whether it was the same one.  Jordan said yes.   Then he said NO, that it was in a different house/guest complex…. and he said he stayed in the main house with MJ….he’s flip flopping. )

“So it was a different building?”

“But Michael and I stayed in his room, which was in the main house.”

“So here we are in Neverland, and then what’s the next step?”

“Well, I slept in his bed there, and then each week we would go back up and it would kind of progress sleeping in bed, and I think one night we were sleeping in the bed, I think it was at Neverland, and he just leaned over and hugged me or something.”

(Jordan did not speak as a teenager would- what teenager would say a relationship “progressed”?  Notice he said “kind of progress” then provided an explanation with “I think”.  How can something “kind of progress”?  Either it does or it doesn’t!  He THINKS it did….and that is not definitive.  See how he made a statement, then backed it up with “I think”?

He thinks MJ hugged him- or something and he THINKS it was at Neverland? THINKS that ONE night, it was in the same bed, but yet, he stated that he slept in the same bed since LV until the end of the relationship.  He said out of a week stay, he stayed in the same bed two or three times, but said also, he stayed in the same bed out of the whole week “all the time”.  More contradictions.  Jordan has made a serious accusation that MJ molested him, and he only thinks hugging happened….He did not remember dates or times, just general months and confusing his own words and things that happened, but he distinctly stated remembered that he THOUGHT MJ hugged him and he THOUGHT it was at Neverland, where he said initially distinctly that was where they were… He couldn’t keep his “facts” straight.  He also said in there to ask his mom…because he said, she WOULD know.  No, she would just remember to say what he was supposed to in order to “fill in the” spaces.)

“Okay, lets call that the end of phase two. Let’s call phase three sleeping in the same bed and nothing else. Alright?”

“Yeah.”

“We’ll call phase four: it was more physical contact.”

“This is where it starts.”

“Where the physical contact started? When would you say that started to the best of your recollection?”

“When like what time?”

“What month? I mean Las Vegas, you said, was in early February sometime.”

“Las Vegas was more like later February.”

“Okay, late February. When was the first hug?”

“I don’t know.”

“Do you have any idea?”

“No.”

“Was it before the summer of ’93?”

“I would think early May, middle May [1993].”

(Jordan stated he did not have any idea when the first hug happened.  All he said was that it did happen, but recalled very little details to describe those times.  The “I would say/think” seems a contradiction.  According to Jordan, they got closer after LA, which was at the end of February, and supposedly sleeping in the same bed; he went to visit every week, but hugs only began in MAY?  They were spending more time together, but the progression to physical contact was slower?  No, a real pedophile wastes no time once trust is granted.  (citation needed)  MJ and Jordan trusted each other well before LV trip.  Remember, Jordan wanted to see MJ and would choose to visit him over seeing his own father.  Here you see Jordan’s effort to associate sexual/inappropriate contact better than previously, whereas before he was having trouble making those associations freely, without suggestions or prompting.  This is evidence of Jordan making associations, labored ones, rather than natural recollection.  It means, because he was making cognitive associations consciously that they did not happen naturally, or it would have been readily/easily recalled before all the same during this part of the interview. The point is, Jordan’s recollection is different as they continue speaking.  This means he was consciously making the associations between what really happened to what he claimed happened.)

“Somewhere in May ’93; that was the first hug? And that was while you were in bed?”

“Yes.”

“Where were you at the time? Where was the bed – physical location?”

“Do you want me to describe what his room looked like?

“No, I’m wondering where the bed was. Were you at Neverland or were you in some city?”

“Oh, this was in Neverland. I think it may have been somewhere else but I’m almost positive it was Neverland.”

(He initially stated this was at Neverland, then said that he THOUGHT it was….again.  Remember he said he did not want to be wrong, so he did not want to guess, yet here Jordan was guessing and contradicting himself by saying “I think it was…”  You don’t have to guess the truth, nor does the truth contradict itself in opposites like how Jordan was recalling.  Jordan made in interesting suggestion, and that was to ask Dr. Gardner if he wanted to know what the room looked like.  Dr. Gardner did not ask….but like in the beginning, he wanted to direct the conversation, possibly to “recall” better?  Another demonstration to better “remember” what happened?)

“Okay, and what happened then?”

“He hugged me and I thought nothing of it. I said, okay, whatever. And that was it and he continued that for a small amount of time.”

(Again, Jordan was not speaking contextually, in syntax, like a normal teenager.  “…He continued that for a small amount of time”.  Again, taking himself right out of the moment and out of the emotion.  Talking like an observer rather than a participant.)

“How long would the hug last?”

“A quick hug and that was it.”

“And this was while in bed?”

“Yeah, and fully clothed.”

“And did you say anything?”

“I don’t remember, I think he said ‘I love you, good night,’ or something. I don’t know.”

(Doesn’t want to be wrong…but he’s guessing, then said he did not remember.  Realize once again, Jordan was accusing MJ of molestation.  He hardly remembers any details, just makes the statements that it happened.  He offered the information that the hug was fully clothed.  It cannot be determined whether Dr. Gardner would have asked him at this point… however, again, a labored effort.  It demonstrates that Jordan wanted to give information he ANTICIPATED he would be asked….it could be another sign of practice and rehearsal.)

“Did you push him away?”

“No. I just – I don’t think I hugged him back. I just said, ‘I love you, good night.’

“He said ‘I love you’?”

“I think so, I don’t know.”

(So far, he has said many things he is not sure about, but stated them like as if they were true, but when you analyze the words he used, you can tell that he was adding something possibly false to what really happened.  We know that MJ said “I love you” to many people quite frequently.  When MJ stated “I love you”, as he was known to say it to many, was not always a “romantic” based “I love you”.  MJ said, I love you to friends, family, and people he was romantic with.  There is nothing wrong in saying “I love you” to friends, but Jordan was making it seem like it meant a deeper love such as in”romantically”.)

“When you say ‘I love you,’ it can be said in many different ways. You understand, someone can say ‘I love you’ and their really saying I’m in love, and sometimes you can say ‘I love you’ as a friendly gesture without romantic feelings. What kind of a way did you say that? Were you saying it with romantic feelings or – – ?”

“Just friends.”

(Here he says he interpreted the “I love you” as friends, but yet, he did not recall hugging him back or saying “I love you”- even though he understood it as being friends???  He was implying then almost taking it back? Jordan admitted cognitively that he KNEW they were just friends, but was making everything out to be something more.

It is hardly inappropriate to tell your friends you love them or to hug them.  Remember, Jordan was saying that MJ was molesting him.  He said many things, including that sleeping in the same bed as someone was sexual, but here he stated that he thought nothing of the hugs.  Some may argue that Jordan was relaying the “friendship” part of the relationship, and then it progressed into something more, however, Jordan was building MJ as a molester, when all the while, he stated they were only friends.  Cognitively, he knew and recognized they were only friends, but Jordan was making a claim that MJ was molesting him and that it built up to it.  It is a contradiction because Dr. Gardner was trying to assess stages and Jordan was backtracking to make it seem like the interactions meant something else.

The truth is that even at this point, Jordan was having difficulty in recalling important and simple details, and said distinctively that he “had to remember what happened”- meaning, remember what he was asked to say.  He was making conscious associations when it came to the sexual parts and it was not recalled naturally.  During this recall, Jordan has expressed phrases similar to what Evan stated previously in the Schwartz conversations.  Later on in the interview with Dr. Gardner, you will see where Jordan used more of the same phrases as Evan did.  Which means, Jordan was coached on what to say.)

“Just friendly. It wasn’t a romantic love?”

“No.”

(Again, cognitively knew that it was not a romantic love, but then used the words, “Intimate”, and then saying he KNEW it was FRIENDSHIP.  This is very important to distinguish the contradictions in Jordan’s words.)

“Okay, go ahead.”

“So after that hugging thing – – “

“Are you describing now a beginning of a pattern of hugging?”

“Yes, like every time he would graduate to a new sexual act, we’d continue that and graduate some more.”

(Again, Jordan took himself away in distance, as if an observer, and not speaking like a normal teenager.  No teenager would describe a relationship as “graduating to a new sexual act, we’d continue that and graduate some more”- it is just simply unnatural to describe things in this manner for a teenager.  Even adults normally would not describe a relationship in this manner.  Adults may say, we were friends first and then it got more serious.  A teenager MIGHT say it like that, but certainly not “graduated” and “continued for a time”.

Jordan just said that the hugging was in friendship- at a time when he knew they were just friends, but here he talks about “graduating to a “new sexual act”.  Hugging is NOT a sexual act in and of itself, for friends hug and it means nothing sexually.  Now, Dr. Gardner suggested a “pattern of hugging”  – which is an extension of the stages he suggested previously.  Jordan was receptive to that suggestion and going along with it.  It shows that Jordan was open to suggestions, which means, he was more susceptible to adopting them.  Behaviorally speaking, Jordan demonstrated assimilation and adaptation to those suggestions.  Jordan begins to use the word “graduate”  – this means he has assimilated the terminology the doctor has set by suggesting “stages” and has adapted to using those terms as defined by Dr. Gardner. 

**He used the “gradual term” in his civil documentation, but notice he did not BEGIN saying it that way in this interview.  When you read the declaration Jordan made in December 1993, you will notice how this interview with Dr. Gardner inadvertently, unwittingly, helped him formulate that piece.**)

“Okay, what was the next step? So are you saying there was a lot of hugging, a lot of attempts to hug?”

“Yeah.”

(These last questions are very suggestive and Jordan goes along with it. How coincidental is it that the way it had progressed is as the Dr. is suggesting? This is an important part in his questioning, remember, Dr. Gardner wants to see how suggestible Jordan is to Dr. Gardner’s definitions.  Remember the type questions are supposed to be non-suggestive, however, to determine a false allegation, this kind of questioning is important.)

“Did this happen in bed or under other circumstances?”

“You know, I mean it was just a regular hug that if anybody saw it they wouldn’t think anything of it.”

(S0 if most would not think anything of it….HE did not think anything of it.. but he was consciously making it out to be a patterned behavior….)

“He did it in public situations?”

“Yeah, like a goodbye kind of hug.”

“Did you ever feel in those hugs that he was sexually aroused? You didn’t ever feel he had an erection or anything like that?”

“No.”

(This is important because a pedophile or child molester WOULD be aroused when they hug a child they find attractive and around children in general.  It would not matter how long or how close the relationship is with the child.  Jordan recognized that the hugs were in friendship, platonic, not sexual.  He fluffed it up by saying others would not notice it as odd, and yet here he was making it out to be patterned and with sexual meaning, as part of the “grooming process”….)

“Okay, the next step.”

“I think he kissed me on the cheek, or something.”

(See how Jordan would introduce a new phase by saying “I think…or something……again, filling in the blanks, embellishing, otherwise, he would have said it definitively, distinctly.  Instead, he “thinks…or something….” and the next phrase, IDK around the same time. Jordan has guessed so much and was unable to recall timing to events.  Notice his next phrases, “I don’t know…”)

“When did that occur?”

“I don’t know, around the same time.”

“Around the same time, so you’re talking about May – we’re still in May of ‘93. He kissed you on the cheek, under what circumstances? Were you in bed? Were you standing up? What were the circumstances?”

“I think we were in bed.”

(Again, “I don’t know, I think”…Jordan picked an answer from Dr. Gardner’s suggestions.  Another demonstrated susceptibility to suggestionJordan played it safe and chose an answer that Dr. Gardner gave him that he felt would have been an acceptable answer.  He originally stated IDK.)


o

“What kind of kiss was it?”

“Just a peck on the cheek. I think it was a goodnight peck on the cheek.”

“And then what happened?”

“And so he continued that as well as the hugging and then graduated to kissing me on the lips.”

(Again, more unnatural speech and disconnection as a participant for a teenager his age.

See, he said “I think MJ kissed me on the cheek”, but knows certainly that it “graduated to on the lips”?  Honestly, he was not certain about anything!!?  Jordan was working hard to make associations here fit -rarely certain of anything, having trouble keeping his story straight, “having to remember what happened”, and going along with suggestions given to him by the doctor….)

“When did that occur as far as you know?”

“I don’t know.”

(He does not know when MJ had been kissing him on the lips?  Again, he is making a serious accusation about things he said MJ did, and does not know when it occurred or how?)

“Was it before the summer?”

“Yeah.”

(another suggestion to which Jordan agrees; He said that he did not remember, but then “pinpointed” it to “before the summer”.  Well, course, he just said that things graduated, and the last stage was “for a while”.  Jordan’s vagueness allowed much room for either his mother to fill it in for him or to add in something when he “remembered”.)

“Is it correct to say it was June? Would that be reasonable?”

“I don’t know. I really don’t know.”

“But it was before the summer?”

“Yeah.”

“There are different kinds of kissing on the lips. What kind of a kiss was it?”

“Just a peck.”

“Was his mouth open or closed?”

“Closed.”

“And how long did it last?”

“I don’t know, a second, I think.”

“Was this in bed?”

“Yeah.”

(Jordan was not certain about anything and kept on saying “I think” to important details.  Now, seriously, we’re not being too hard on Jordan and his lack of memory, but considering that all of his memories at the time were within that year….if what he was saying was true, he would have remembered more details, because these were not memories from YEARS before, but within the previous 7-8 months and he should have been able to remember certain details better.  He stated in the beginning that he could remember phone conversations from the early days, but then when asked to recall one, he said he did not remember.  His vagueness served a purpose, which was to allow room for his parents to “fill in the blanks” on details they did not even witness.)

“And then the next step?”

“Next step, I think he graduated to like kissing me for a longer amount of time, you know.”

(Another demonstration of observational, non-participant, dissociative speech.  No teenager expresses themselves this way.  Simply unnatural.  No adult would explain it this way either; you might think he were writing a screenplay!

“On the lips?”

“Yes.”

(Again, Jordan “thinks he graduated to like kissing me for a longer amount of time, you know”)

“Where was this? Where were most of these things happening? Was it Neverland? Was it mostly Neverland?”

“Neverland.”

“Were there other places other than Neverland where this was happening?”

“Yeah. At Century City, at the Hideout.”

“So primarily at Neverland and Century City Hideout? This Century City Hideout, I don’t think I have a clear picture of what it’s like, you said it’s in an area where people wouldn’t know there was a hideout there.”

“Well, there are many apartments around there – – ”

“Is Century City that name of a city around there?”

“Yeah.”

“You see, I’m from the east coast is all. Century City is part of Los Angeles?”

“Yes.”

///////

“Okay, so it’s really an apartment. Right? I get the picture. So it happened there and it happened in Neverland and Century City and in your mother’s house?”

“Yes.”

“He was sleeping over at your mother’s house?”

“Yes.”

“And when he’d sleep over at your mother’s house, he was in the room together with you?”

“I had my room.”

“And he would sleep in your room?”

“Yeah.”

(Jordan first stated that he had his room.  Then he stated that MJ stayed in his room, but you see, Dr. Gardner had to ask the same question differently and Jordan consciously made the association between MJ staying at his house and sleeping in the same bed.   The first answer infers that MJ had his own room at June’s house because Jordan said “I had my room”- he excluded MJ cognitively and naturally.  Then when asked directly whether MJ stayed in his room, he answered differently.

If it were true that MJ stayed in his room, the association would have already been there and he would have answered ” he stayed in my room”.  But you see, there was NO cognitive association with MJ staying in his room and SLEEPING in the same room.  Dr. Gardner asked if MJ stayed with Jordan in his room with Jordan stated “I had my room”.  If MJ really stayed in Jordan’s room with him as Dr. Gardner said it, it implies that MJ slept there too if that was where he STAYED.  If MJ stayed and SLEPT in Jordan’s room, it would not matter how the question was stated- Jordan would have associated it naturally, but he did not make that association until directly asked.  So when Jordan was asked the same question in a different way, more direct, it was only then that he consciously made that association. 

Jordan stated before sthat after LV trip, that he and MJ slept in the same bed until the end of the relationship.  The question Dr. Gardner was asking him about happened well after the LV trip.  But you see, Jordan did not associate MJ sleeping in the same room and bed during the time asked.  He did not associate this visit to that time, which was well after the LV trip.  The LV trip was in February and the time they were talking about was in May.  If Jordan really did always stay in the same room as MJ until the end of the relationship like Jordan said, there would be a cognitive association regardless of the question phrasing.  Jordan had different answers because he did not associate MJ staying in his room until directly asked.  More inconsistencies.)

“About how many occasions did he sleep in your room at your mother’s house?”

“I don’t know. My mom would know. I don’t.”

“Roughly.”

“I don’t know.”

“More than five times?”

“Yeah.”

“More than ten times would you say?”

“Uh-huh.”

“More than fifteen times?”

“I don’t know.”

“Twelve to fifteen would be a reasonable number?”

“It could be a whole lot more but that’s something my mom would have to say.”

(More “I don’t know, I think, COULD BE”?  He made an initial statement, then tried to back it up with uncertainty.  His mom would have to say how many times he stayed with them?  See how Jordan made a statement, without certainty, gave a guess, and then suggests that his mother would know?  He opened the door to his mother answering for him.)

“Okay, what we’re talking about now, is this is all before the summer?”

“I think so.”

“Okay, so then, we’r talking about kissing on your lips a long time.”

“And then one time he was kissing me on the lips for a longer amount of time – a peck on the lips – and he put his tongue in my mouth.”

(Really? Pardon for the bluntness, but ummm….A peck on the lips is quick, certainly not long enough to involve tongue “in his mouth”…..oh my.  Besides, people usually call it a “French Kiss”, but you see, Jordan spoke like an observer, non-participant, as if HE did not experience it.  This lack of “emotion” and attachment is unnatural for someone who says they experienced these acts.)

“And what was your reaction to that?”

“I said, ‘Hey, I didn’t like that. Don’t do that again’.”

“And what did he say?”

“He started crying, much like when he tried to convince my mother to allow us to sleep in the same bed.”

(This part is important: look at his words.  He said that when MJ kissed him, he said “her I didn’t like that. Don’t do that again”….umm…speaking in the past when he was talking about something he said at that time???  He switched tenses  in the same recollection of the incident.  He was speaking as if he were saying it at the time he said it to MJ, but then used the past, then present tense.  This is a cognitive disassociation to what he said and using the tenses as he did.  This means, he backtracked as if to associate an event to what he said happened.  If this truly happened, he would not have slipped up in tense.  He said “I DIDN’T like that” when the normal response would be “I said, Hey, I don’t like that” considering he was recalling what he supposedly said at the time that was the “present”  Some may argue that he could have made a mistake in his tenses, but cognitively, there is no congruence to speaking about the past with what he supposedly said during that present time.  People do not usually make that kind of mistake when quoting themselves – even in a past experience because people put themselves naturally at that time as if it were being said then.  I hope this makes sense to you.  Some may think that I am being too harsh on Jordan, however, these are cognitive associations with speech consciously made to look congruent.  In other words, this event is something  he added to his memory.  It is an indication that the conversation and event did not go that way upon recall.)

“And what did he say?”

“He said there’s nothing wrong with it. He would get me to do things and convince me that the things he was doing weren’t wrong, because he would talk about people who levitate, you know, it was weird.”

“He would talk about people who what?”

“Levitate.”

“What does levitate mean to you?”

“Rise up from the ground by means of meditating.”

“And what did he say about levitation?”

“That the people who levitate are unconditioned. It’s confusing; it took me a long time to understand it.”

“When you talk about unconditioned, what does that mean?”

“That they were not conditioned to believe that gravity existed, and I suppose that that meant that those who are unconditioned would find what Michael was doing was not wrong. Do you understand that?”

(“he would do things and convince me that he things he was doing were not wrong BECAUSE he would talk about people who levitate….” This is Jordan’s reasoning about something he does not truly understand.  Now, Jordan goes back to trying to further establish a pattern in MJ regarding guilt to get what he wants by comparing it to something that he related earlier.  Just because Jordan relayed it this way, does not mean it is true.  This is his projection of his father’s beliefs about MJ.)

“Uh-huh. What else did he say to you?”

“He said, also, during phase one, the telephone phase, his cousin would go along with him on the tour. And I spoke to his cousin one time. We just said hello.”

“Was his cousin a boy or girl?”

“A boy about my age, eleven or twelve.”

“What was his cousin’s name?

“His name is Tommy Jones; he was on the news if you’ve been watching, in defense of Michael.”

“Tommy Jones. He’s thirteen now?”

“I think – – no, I think he’s twelve.”

“And he went on the concerts?”

“On the tours.”

“On the tours. And he was on the news saying what?”

“He said, ‘I will admit that Michael and I are friends and we do sleep in the same bed, but Michael has never touched me,’ and, ‘it’s a really big bed’.

“So he spoke about his cousin. And what did he say about Tommy Jones?”

“He said that, um, like, if he wanted me to do something with him, he would say that Tommy did that with him, so that I would do it. And, like, if I didn’t do it, then I didn’t love him as much as Tommy did.” [Jordie makes a heavy sigh.]

(laying this one on really thick….)

“Are you okay?”

“Yeah.”

(Jordan explained that this is how MJ seduced him?  By Guilt trips and then you don’t love me threats??  He was trying to strengthen the perception that MJ had this patterned behavior- guilt trips to get what he wanted.  If MJ’s MO was to cry to get what he wanted, Jordan stated nothing of crying this time.  Jordan clearly embellished and was trying to tie this into past behaviors that Jordan said he did.  First, Jordan brought up MJ’s younger cousin, claimed that MJ’s cousin brought up sleeping in the same bed, etc, and then tied that into guilt trips-like how supposedly MJ put on June? If the accusations could not get any lower and dramatic.)

“Okay, fine, you’re doing very nicely. You know, we’re going to take a break but let’s try to finish this and then we’ll take a break.”

“Do you think that Tommy Jones was lying when he went on television?”

“Yes.”

“Why do you think he’s lying?”

“Because Michael told me they did.”

“Okay, but Michael said he did these things – – “

“I mean it could be that Michael could be lying to me.”

(Jordan slipped up here.  He turned the table to state that MJ was lying as opposed to Tommy.  He also said he thought Tommy was lying, but then turned it back to MJ lying?  It cannot be both Tommy and MJ lying. Jordan said MJ told him MJ did inappropriate things with Tommy when Tommy said that nothing happened between them.  Jordan was right, someone was lying- HE was lying and forgot what to say about Tommy and MJ.  Tommy was MJ’s COUSIN.   While it is possible to make a genuine error innocently….. this was no innocent error.  Jordan was trying to make something out of nothing.  The general public may not know that Tommy was MJ’s cousin, so if Tommy said something about he and MJ to the media, it was in defense of MJ because the media painted MJ so badly.)

“Somebody is lying. Right? Because Michael was lying to Tommy by saying the opposite things, right?”

“Yeah, well one of them is lying.”

“Who do you think is lying?”

(now he has had a chance to think it through…he answered “Tommy” as lying…)

“Tommy.”

“Why do you say that?”

“Because in public, when he’s with Tommy, they’re very close together physically and verbally and relationship-wise. And if one were to observe things in public, how they acted to each other, one would come to that conclusion, that it was more then just a friendly relationship.”

(Really, everyone thought MJ was too close to his COUSIN inappropriately?  This is generalization.  This is a very mature statement he makes, and he suspects misconduct due to HIS OWN thinking.  This is what HE really thought?  So he is basically saying that MJ has inappropriate relations with his blood relatives?  Jordan was using the same tactics that the media did with MJ….what a shame.

Furthermore, “and if one were to observe things in public, how they acted to each other, one would come to that conclusion, that it was more than just a friendly relationship”  – Is a demonstration of observational, clinical speech.  Clearly, this is not an age appropriate manner of speaking for Jordan.  This is more of an adult speech and cognition.  The ability to observe, speak in the third person, as if an observer, is an adult ability.  This is acquired through in part training and maturity (maturity of a deeper conscious, a critical thinking processing.  Again, this is a generalization to what others think, the kind of generalization as to how the media victimized MJ over the years, which was apparent in 1993.  The media had not been kind to MJ since the mid 80’s.  Because MJ was a private person and rarely spoke about any of his intimate relationships, the media questioned his orientation and preferences. They also made Neverland abnormal by the same generalizations.)

“Now, let’s go on. So that was the lip kissing. Then he cried – – ”

“He tries to make me feel guilty for – – “

“And then what happened?”

“And then one time, when he was hugging me and kissing me, and he rubbed up against me. I don’t know if he had an erection or not. I can’t remember.”

(Again, Jordan distanced himself as a participant involved in the interaction.  He expressed himself in clinical terms and dryness that you can only obtain with practice. 

In close proximity as “rubbing against (him)” and he could not tell whether MJ had an erection or not?  Seriously?

Notice how Jordan tried to guide the conversation…

Another thing, Jordan spoke about french kissing and said he did not like that, but yet when he said MJ rubbed against him, he was compliant and said nothing?  Also, when Jordan recalled the time when he told his mother about the Exorcist night, when he said they “slept in the same bed”, this was something he kept to himself?  From his mother?  Jordan, a person who had little difficulty in asserting himself against his father and Dr. Gardner, all of a sudden had no response to MJ about this?  C’mon now…)

“Now was this in bed or what?”

“Bed.”

“Was this all before the summer?”

“I don’t remember. It may have gone into the summer.”

(Again, he made a statement then tried to back it up with “I think…”  I’m sorry, but this event is not something that if it really happened, you would not be able to recall it accurately.  A teenager who supposedly did not have any sexual encounters did not remember the exact details and nonetheless someone who protested to a french kiss but not this?  Notice the unnaturalness about this as Jordan expressed it.)

“So you took what as the next step? You’re talking about the gradual development; the next step was his rubbing against you?”

“Yes.”

“With an erection.”

“I think he had an erection. As it graduated he did.”

(He said “I think” previously, but now when associating this to “graduated”, he KNEW? This is inconsistent, but not inconsistent with the theme of “stages”.  Jordan was going along well with the stages at the Dr’s suggestion.  The issue with this section is that  a pedophile or child molester would always become aroused under the conditions Jordan expressed.  And again, Jordan said “I think”…Forgive me but, how can one not notice an erection when someone is that physically close to you?)

“And then?”

“Then it graduated to where he had an erection and he would kiss me.”

(What teenager talks like that?  It’s too formal and like a scientific observer rather than a teenager.  Now he made a statement where he had said I think…)

“Kiss you where?”

“On my mouth. By the way, he never put his tongue in my mouth again once I told him not to.”

(This is where the story is unbelievable.  Previously, when Jordan spoke about “tongue”, he supposedly told MJ not to do it anymore and notice he said he did not do that anymore, but notice, he did not say he told MJ not to kiss or rub against him.  It makes no sense how Jordan would have allowed one and said nothing about the other considering Jordan had no issues with asserting himself in other situations, but this, he presented himself as compliant?  Without protest?  This is unnatural.)

“What’s the next step?”

“Let’s see, I think the next step was, I had an erection and he rubbed up against me and that was it.”

(OMG, “let’s see”?  Right here, he worked out the stage consciously!  He worked it out to what the next stage in his mind should be.  He had just been talking about how this was the next stage, but then here, he said, “let’s see, the next step was…”  This is a demonstration of consciously working it out to match what he said before.  If it was a real cognitive association, there would be no “let’s see”.  He would have made the statement as a statement.  Instead, he presented it as a SUGGESTION.)

“You had an erection and he rubbed himself against – – ?”

“And he did, he did as well.”

“Okay, and where was his erection and where was your erection? You both have an erection.”

“We were on top of each other.”

“Anything else?”

“That was it, and then it graduated to other stuff. Somewhere during that time we went to Florida.”

(Again, no teenager expresses a relationship where it ‘graduated to other stuff”.  And notice how it put a time event to it, “somewhere during that time, we went to Florida”.  Dr. Gardner did not ask where else they went to during that time, but Jordan offered it.  Dr. Gardner just asked anything else.  This is an example of Jordan working the details out in his mind and then consciously relaying them.  If it were natural in the conversation, it would have simply come up for that time frame when it happened- such as in spontaneous recollection.  He did not spontaneously recall it, he inserted it.  The thought of “it graduated to other stuff” backtracked to “Florida”- this is a conscious association rather than a natural recollection.

Here Jordan set the scenario for the next subject.  He said “Florida” so Dr. Gardner would then ask about Florida.  This would allow Jordan to gain control over the conversation because he fed Dr. Gardner a direction to go in where Dr. Gardner would then have to ask questions in that direction.

“When did you go to Florida?”

“I don’t know. My mom would know. [April 1993.] And there we stayed in the same room.”

(Notice how anything that has to do with timing, he always says IDK. Granted, children/some teenagers do not have a sense of time, however, his way to remember “what happened” is only to associate those things to places?  If something truly happened as he said it did, there would be NO disassociation with timing OR places with such a sexual event as this.   The fact that Dr. Gardner told him he would be talking to his mother and it became “acceptable” that he would ask her about timing.  But again, Jordan made strong accusations with nothing else to support it behaviorally.  He just makes these claims with nothing else, then said his mom would know.)

“Where was your mother?”

“Same suite, different room, with Kelly.”

“What happened in Florida?”

“Several things happened. One, he grabbed my butt, put his tongue in my ear – – “

“He grabbed your butt; was he forcing you?”

“No. Well, he was kissing me and he grabbed my butt.”

“It wasn’t forced?”

“But, um, and then the third thing was that he was walking to the bathroom to take a shower,

and he looked at me before he closed the door and he said, ‘I wish I didn’t have to do this,’ and he

shut the door, implying that he wished he could be so free as to be able to change in front of me.”

(Notice how Jordan did not answer whether it was “forced.”  He completely avoided that answer. He went right into describing the next part.  Again, an unemotional and lack of attachment to the event, unlike someone who actually experienced these events.  Jordan was saying it like it was a story or script, or whatever he practiced.  Up to this point, we have “witnessed” how Jordan used his words at times in a third person, unattached, unnatural manner, as if he were reading the words out of a storyline.

Again, Jordan was a person who had little difficulty in setting boundaries with others and here, he allowed all this to happen?  It does not make sense.  In this last part, Jordan was talking more like how he would tell a story, as if he were reading a story out loud.  His choice of words is still very distant, like he was not a participant who EXPERIENCED these instances.  Dr. Gardner did not make a note of Jordan having emotion, as he did when he put a [sigh] in his notes.  Dr. Gardner had some notes on Jordan’s lines as a message to himself during the evaluation.  Notice how in almost any line, there is no note to Jordan’s emotion other than that one time where Jordan sighed.  That means, Jordan did not cry, did not have distress in recalling events, that he was emotionally unattached.  This lack of attachment is not normal in a real case of molestation.

See the difference from when Dr. Gardner asks the questions first, then when Jordan gave him a direction to such as about Florida?  He said very strong statements again, very generally, then changed the subject to something else.  This was how Jordan wanted to control the entire interview.  He said things quickly, then distinctively, as opposed to allowing Dr. Gardner to conduct the interview like the first half of the interview.  This is a strong indication that Jordan had a direction to state things in a certain way.  By doing so, he would control what was said when, which would allow him to remember a scripted sequence.  When teenagers relay something that happened to them, they are not that direct.  I have worked with thousands of teenagers in my career and NONE were this focused on anything they said or did when they detailed traumas in their life.)

“Changing from what to what? I’m a little confused. You said he grabbed your butt – – ”

“There are three different things.”

“He grabbed your butt, put his tongue in your ear and walked into the bathroom and said, ‘I wish I didn’t have to do this.’

“Then he shut the door.”

(See how methodical his speech was?  He could not recall conversation as he said he could and now he recalled events sequentially when he was able to control the direction that the interview went.  See how much easier it was for Jordan to control the interview process by taking that initial control over Florida?  He made Dr. Gardner have to catch up, but Dr. Gardner’s recollection to what he was listening to was generally exact to what Jordan said, though he said he was confused.  This means that Dr. Gardner was quick to pick up on details.  Still, by Jordan having the control over the direction, it shifted to his control.  In this way, Jordan was able to relay the “story” as he wished.  This is not spontaneous recollection, this is Jordan telling a story indeed.

“How long was he in the bathroom?”

“He took a shower, I don’t know.”

“Now, when he said ‘I wish I didn’t have to do this,’ what was he referring to?”

“To shut the door behind him when he had to change.”

“The implication being that he would like to be naked in front of you, is that what you’re saying?”

“Right. But somewhere on the trip I said, ‘I didn’t like when you put your tongue in my ear and grabbed my butt.’ Once again, he started crying and making me feel guilty, and saying there’s nothing wrong with it, and referring to the levitators and Tommy. I think he referred to Tommy and said Tommy wouldn’t care if I did that to him.”

(Jordan was able to recall when he controlled the direction of the interview, and he said once again, that he enforced boundaries, but when he said MJ was rubbing on him etc, he said nothing?  Inconsistency. Then he tried to back it up with “I think”.

He still maintained that MJ would harm his own flesh and blood, his family.  This time, he added to it by saying that tommy would not mind. It is almost like he and Evan read a profile of pedophilia and was trying to match MJ’s behaviors with that profile, as there were pedophilia profiling back during that time, so the information was available.  Considering that Evan was educated and coached on what to say and do and did not want to say or do anything that would ruin his plan, it is extremely likely that Evan would want Jordan to be as coached.  Jordan made these statements all through this interview and then his explanation and recall when asked again, shows me that it is all fabricated.  Jordan was not consistent with anything until he took control over the interview.

This It is a MAJOR difference from the control Dr. Gardner had in the beginning of the interview to compare this part of the interview to the beginning half.  In this passage, Jordan did all kinds of things here.  He quickly answered his questions and did not give the Dr. a chance to explore those thoughts analytically.  He just put it out there.  He then backtracked to the previous part, “somewhere on the trip I said..” and then tried to tie that into a past behavior Jordan tried to express earlier to a couple of the instances Jordan relayed.  So again, he can recall entire conversation, remember what happened with what event, but not day to day timing when it was said ie “somewhere on the trip, I said..”. In the beginning up to this point, Jordan tried to gain control over the interview.  Now he had it, he was able to go with it.  This means instruction, coaching because his responses were so different when Dr. Gardner was in charge of the interview.  Less labored.

He said though “I think..” when he just stated something that appeared in a declarative – as he said it “distinctly” in the beginning.  He inadvertently pulled all that he said apart by saying I think, and weakened his claims exponentially.  This is a demonstration of Jordan trying to associate events with his claims, and by him having the control initially, he still undermined his own words by “I think”.)

“Then what’s the next step?”

“By the way, he never did those either. The next step, we went back home to LA and he continued doing the things I hadn’t stopped him from doing.”

(He never did those either? Those what? I am sure MJ did not do anything.  He contradicted himself here by saying MJ did not do those things, to saying he did not stop doing those things.  He did not even give the doctor a moment to pick that up – at least, he did not ask what Jordan meant by “never did those either”.   If MJ never did those things either, then how could he continue them in LA?  Yes, MJ continued to do what he did NOT do!! Considering they were talking about sexual interactions, molestation, this is what MJ did not do…)

“Is this before the summer or during the summer?”

“I’m sure it was during the summer.”

“The next step?”

“In L.A., he continued those things.”

“Which things?”

“Rubbing up against me, having an erection and kissing for long periods of time.”

(See how Jordan was more methodical, remembering sequentially since he took control over the interview?  This was absent in the beginning when Dr. Gardner had control over the interviewing process.)

“And having an erection?”

“Yes.”

“Then what was the next step?”

“Then we went to Monaco.”

“When did you go to Monaco?”

“During the summer, I think. My mom – – ” [Early May, 1993.]              (<—- See Dr. Note to himself?)

“And in Monaco?”

“In Monaco, he and I both had colds so we couldn’t go out on the town or whatever and see the sights. We had to stay in and that’s pretty much when the bad stuff happened.”

“What happened?”

“I don’t know. I think when he convinced me to take a bath with him or something. See, my mom and Kelly were gone, they were having fun and we were stuck in with colds. And my mom, I remember, she offered to stay in and help us and take care of us, and Michael insisted that our colds shouldn’t detract from them having fun. So we were alone and we took a bath together. That was the first time we ever saw each other naked. And during that time when we were alone in the room and they were gone, he talked about how all of his children friends masturbate in front of him.”

(Dr. Gardner asked what happened, and Jordan’s answer was I DON’T KNOW….I think… then proceeded to answer. Jordan who was able to set boundaries about the kissing, grabbing his buttocks, (which Jordan said he continued to NOT do) AGREED to take a bath with MJ? C’mon now.

Jordan stated that this happened in May during the Monaco trip, but yet, Jordan CONTINUED to see MJ, even though, he said they “bathed together” and all these sexual conversations?  They had plans to travel to Europe on the Dangerous tour??  Jordan stated that MJ “did things to him” that harmed him and he wanted to still spend time with him- Jordan was still visiting MJ up until July 9th, 1993, the day he said to Pellicano that MJ never did anything to him and he knew his dad was trying to get money.  Children who truly have been molested do not wish to spend time with the person harming them, in fact, they avoid being with them, and certain do not CHOOSE to visit them.  Again, in this passage, Jordan related the events unattached to any emotion.  He spoke like he were relaying a story to which he had no physical experience.  Children who have been molested often have emotion when relaying the “really bad stuff”, and you see, Jordan kept his composure, emotion and spoke like he had not truly experienced those events.)

“Did he say which children friends did it?”

“Yeah.”

“Which children friends did he say masturbated him?”

“Masturbated in front of him.”

“Oh, masturbated in front of him. Okay, who did he say masturbated in front of him?”

“He said Peter Davis, Ian Roberts, Tommy Jones, Billy Williams – he was also on TV.”

“He was also on TV and he said what?

‘Michael and I do sleep in the same bed but Michael has never touched me.'”

“He’s lying or Michael’s lying?”

“Well, I don’t – as far as I know he’s not lying. Michael never did touch him, as far as I know. But Michael said that Billy masturbated in front of him.”

(Jordan said that MJ said his children friends would do sexual things in front of him, and that they did sexual things with them, but Jordan just said that MJ never did touch him as far as he knew.  Jordan said someone was not lying, but then said MJ never touched him, but only was not sure of it because MJ said his children friends did that in front of him?  Jordan was a talking contradiction.)

“So Billy didn’t say on TV anything about masturbation?”

“No No. And so, other kids – – Wait, I got to think of this kid’s name, Sam Thomas.

“Who’s he?”

“A boy who went on the Bad tour with him. That’s the name of the tour before this one.”

“You say, Bad tour, is that the name of the tour?”

“Bad, Yes.”

“They called it the Bad tour.”

“Named after his album.”

“So what else happened, if anything?”

“So he was talking about how all these kids masturbated in front of him, and he said that – – Oh, by the way, I met Tommy and Billy during that time period, and Peter Davis as well. So he was saying that all these kids masturbate and it feels really good, and so one time he masturbated in front of me. That was the first time.”

“He masturbated in front of you?”

“Um, like, he didn’t make me watch and like he was on the bed masturbating, and, I don’t know, I was changing.”

(Jordan JUST said that MJ masturbated in front of him, but then said, he was on the bed and “I don’t know”, he “was in the other room changing”?  He gave the impression of one thing, then changed it a little bit by saying MJ was on the bed, that he was not watching and in the other room changing.  See how Jordan would make a statement, then follow it up with “I think”?  Think about it, if you saw your friend doing that, wouldn’t you remember??

Jordan did not know, Jordan was changing, then how did he know what MJ was doing?  See how he made a statement, then abandoned it to get out of explaining more? He made sure he mentioned other children.  He certainly painted a bad picture of MJ to Dr. Gardner.  The important thing to notice is that since Jordan became more assertive in the interview, leading it more, he was better able to say what he was made to say, but this would make it easier for Dr. Gardner to assess a false accusation.  Dr. Gardner was adept at asking questions and slipping phrases in to which Jordan would mess up every time and contradict himself.)

“This is when you had colds in Monaco?”

“Yeah. I don’t know if I was standing in the same room or not, but it wasn’t like he shut the door and closed everything.”

(Again – “I don’t know”- He was changing, but did not know whether he was in the same room?  If he was in the same room, or did not notice whether Jordan changed in the bathroom or bedroom or not, and he did not notice what MJ was doing to know, but could make that statement???  OMG)

“Where was he and where were you?”

“He was on the bed, in the room. I was, I may have been getting ready in the bathroom, or in the – – We had a large closet and so I maybe was getting dressed in there.”

“But you saw him?”

“Yeah.

(He said now he saw him, but before said IDK, did not know where he was standing in the room? Then he changed to say maybe Jordan was changing in the closet??? Oh my.  Did not know where he was in the hotel room, but could see what MJ was doing to which he said IDK… OMG, he talked in circles.)

“Go ahead, next thing.”

“And so he continued that for, like, a lot of the trip. And he kept on saying, ‘Tell me when you’re ready and I’ll do it for you.’ Because up till then I had never masturbated or anything. And I had never, ever, indicated to him that I was ready, like, to be masturbated. And I guess that wasn’t according to his plans, and so, one time he just reached over and said, “Okay, just tell me how this feels.’ And he put his hand on my – – “

(Statistically speaking, over 60% of teenagers have masturbated at the onset of puberty age 10-14. (http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html#masturbation; http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-6577343/First-stirrings-cultural-notes-on.htmlJordan stated that he did not know about it, but he had known about more content regarding sexuality..Jordan wanted to make it seem like MJ introduced him to it, but that was not true. Jordan co-wrote “Robin Hood: Men in Tights” which was FILLED with sexual and homophobic jokes throughout the movie.  That movie came out June 28, 1993.  He was writing about sexual things before!  See a little down more in the conversation about his first sexual dream.  Boys at that age talk to their friends about these things.  You cannot tell me he was not aware of sexual things with other boys around his age and that they did not share these things privately, at least in talking about it.  Jordan professed too much in this section.  He still spoke unattached to the emotion, like as if he were reading it out of a book.)

“And this was in Monaco?”

“Right. And he put his hand on my shorts and he said, ‘Now doesn’t that feel good.’ And he rubbed up and down. And I said ‘Yeah.'”

(Again, Jordan who had little difficulty in setting boundaries, allowed this to happen. He protested with other things, but not the more serious ones? Very contradictory.

Jordan was claiming that MJ was sexual with him and he still chose to see MJ over his father in July and had plans to go on the Dangerous tour??? I cannot iterate enough that these responses are not how children who have been violated respond.  They usually DO NOT want to spend time with someone who abused them.  Notice how Jordan stuck in there ” guess it wasn’t according to his plans, and so…”  Jordan was forcing the associations, then as someone who had very little difficulty in telling an adult, including his father, when to back off, and suddenly he became permissive?  These are incompatible behaviors for Jordan’s personality.

But notice how Jordan just ran with this one too.  Dr. Gardner allowed it because Jordan was just running with it and would be more likely to make cognitive errors.  He was exhibiting more cognitive errors than when Dr. Gardner was asking the questions! )

“Did he masturbate you to orgasm, to climax?”

Well, then he said, ‘Well wait, it gets even better,’ and he put his hand under my shorts and masturbated me to the end.

(This is where you can tell Jordan is telling a story, like a scripted one.  Dr. Gardner asked him about climax, and he said “well,..then he said “well wait, it gets even better”  like as if he was telling a story.  “Well, wait it gets better” was Jordan’s words as he was relating this story- he did not answer the question directly before buying some time.  He made a conscious effort to make sure that he stuck to his flow of the story.  This is evidence of a labored tale.) 

“Is that the very first climax you had in your life?”

“Yeah. Well wait, during that summer I had a, what’s it called, a wet something?

(Jordan now is bold and refused to answer the question right away. He understood what climax meant, but did not know what that kind of dream was?  Jordan, who co-wrote a screenplay filled with sexual and homophobic jokes the previous year??  C’mon now.  Boys usually understand what that is between the ages of 10 and 14.  Every boy experiences it as it is part of puberty.  It is likely to be a conversation topic amongst the closest of friends.

He had to lead up to it by backtracking to a time as opposed to answering the question- when he said summer, but the trip in Monaco was in MAY- A month BEFORE SUMMER.  Monaco was at the beginning of May- taped on May 12th.  Summer solstice is usually around July 21st.)

“You mean at night, while you’re asleep?”

“Yeah.”

“You mean a wet dream.”

“Yeah.”

“Okay, these were spontaneous. Did you have orgasms in your wet dreams?”

“I had one and that was it.”

(I find it difficult to believe.  He was diminishing the very distinguishing aspects of puberty that no boy can escape from.  It is not something they could control nor something that they could prevent happening because it goes against the very nature- it is simply part of the natural process of puberty.)

“But it was the same feeling?”

“Yeah.”

“So that was your first, was in the wet dream?”

“Right.”

“And then so your first orgasm outside of a wet dream was when he masturbated you?”

“Right.”

(Notice Jordan had to backtrack in order to give him a straight answer about orgasms)

“Okay.”

“What was the next step?”

“And he, like, continued that. He stopped everything else that we were originally doing together; we just took baths. And we went to Euro-Disney after we went to Monaco.”

“Anything else at Monaco other than what you told me?”

“Uh-uh.”

“About how many times would you say he masturbated you at Monaco?”

“I don’t know.”

(Jordan made such a massive accusation, but did not know a detail like how many times?  He stated that MJ stopped doing everything else with him, that they simply just took baths together, and yet during that time, MJ was doing the sexual things?  When Dr. Gardner asked him whether it happened in Monaco, he said I DON’T KNOW, but stated earlier these things happened in Monaco? Do you see the contradictions?  C’mon, he did not know whether MJ did that to him then when asked a second or third time?  Please.. he made a statement and then backed it up with the I think’s again.Again, Jordan was claiming MJ was sexually abusing him and he continued to see him and go to Euro Disney, which is on the Northern Part of France in Paris?  Monaco is in the southern part of France… He continued to travel with him?  Jordan could not keep his story straight!!)

“What were your feelings about it then?”

“Well, um, I said, this is really weird, like I never said I was ready then. But I said to myself, it feels good so, just, whatever, and he’s my friend, so I can’t be – – “

(Here Jordan stated that because MJ was his friend that he thought it was ok because it felt good?  A person who set boundaries before had long abandoned that ability?  This is unbelievable- for a person who helped make a script making fun of sexuality, homophobic jokes included, all of a sudden did not know boundaries?  Jordan’s logic does not make any sense.  Not only that but, here Jordan tried to make it seem like it was almost consensual, however, when associating activities that MJ liked to do, talk about, he separated himself, and made it seem like MJ was abnormal, perpetuating on the very abuse the media did to him since sometime in the 1980’s?  )

“And while he was masturbating you, what was he doing?”

“Just that, nothing.”

“Okay. Is there anything more about Monaco?”

“No.”

“Okay, what’s the next thing?”

“The next thing, we went to Euro-Disney.”

“When was that?”

“After Monaco, because Monaco’s in France as well as Euro-Disney, so we went from Monaco to Euro-Disney.”

“And how long were you at Euro-Disney?”

“I don’t know, a week or two at most.”

Was this during the summer?”

“I don’t know. No, wait, no actually now that I remember, up ‘til now, nothing was past the summer now that I remember, because – – ”

“So, Monaco was before the summer?”

“Everything.”

(Jordan just stated that nothing happened past the summer.

Jordan knew very well when Monaco was – it was just 5 months previous.  Where he was not certain that anything was before the summer or into it, he now remembered that nothing past the summer, but he recalled things happening in June and July.  Remember Jordan had seen MJ in July, which was well after Monaco.  July 9th, Jordan stated that MJ never did anything sexual to Jordan.  Jordan only came to make these false accusations when he was in his father’s care on August 17th. 

This was not a case where Jordan may have much embarrassment or shyness, for he helped create a sexual satire-Robin Hood: Men in tights, which was a story filled with sexual, homophobic and virginity jokes.  Jordan seemed all willing to turn MJ out to Evan.  After all, Evan was now his temporary guardian and the one responsible for his care: food, shelter, clothing.  Who know what Evan would have done if Jordan did not go along with his plan. Duress.  I truly believe – professionally speaking- Jordan was acting under duress- he relied on Evan for his overall survival.

Jordan stated that he continued to sleep in the same bed as MJ up until the relationship ended in July- July 9th to be exact.  Jordan just said that everything happened before the summer, but July is in the middle of summer.  Jordan was with MJ on July 9th when Pellicano spoke to Jordan about the content on the Chandler-Schwartz tapes.  JORDAN said then, MJ never did anything to him.  THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT to note that discrepancy.  (Jones, A, 2007))

“Euro-Disney was before the summer?”

“Yes, everything. Now I remember because I had a book to read for finals. It was called To Kill A Mockingbird. Supposedly that was one of his favorite books. And so he helped me study and he read the book to me and then he continued to masturbate me.”

“By the way, if this was before the summer, this is the school time. When you’re in all these other places, what’s going on with school?”

“Well, I managed to still get all As; I brought my book with me.”

“Did the school permit this?”

“Yeah.”

(See how Jordan was matching the event cognitively to what he selectively remembered?  He and Dr. Gardner had been talking about May, and now he equated school with these events.  If these happened while he was still in school and studying while on these trips, still managing to get A’s, he would have associated all those events without trouble, and would have known that was before the summer considering school gets out before summer begins.  These are not events that people would tend to forget, but Jordan needed a conversation to recall this all to put events to timing.  This is a demonstration that he was TRYING to associate his story, the made up parts, to known events or otherwise they would have been naturally recalled as opposed to labored remembering.  This means that he was not spontaneously recalling, but consciously assigning.  He still was not emotional in his speech and talking as if he were not a participant who really experienced those events.  His words are very distant like as if he were reading it on a page.)

“What happened at Euro-Disney?”

“He continued to masturbate me.”

“About how many times do you think?”

“About once a day. And that was it for Euro-Disney – and France, in general.”

(Jordan stated previously that he did not know how many times things happened, but here, he filled it in guessing.  He said it was for Euro-Disney and Monaco, but when asked a few sentences ago, while he was talking about Monaco, he did not know how many times.  Now that he’s mentally associated CONSCIOUSLY, Monaco, with the sexual events and EuroDisney, he had to CONSCIOUSLY integrated the memories.    Once again, this is not how natural recollection occurs.  If all this happened at the same time, inter-related on its own, if these events really happened, there would not be such an effort to relate all of this.  The memories would naturally be there and would be recalled pretty easily, especially considering no one was inebriated.  These are pure fabrications because Jordan has tried so hard to match the sexual events up, to what “he could remember”.  By talking like this, he was creating an artificial, made up association and with the practice, he was able to recall what he was rehearsed to say.)

“Okay, that was it with Euro-Disney. Anything else?

“You mean Euro-Disney?”

“Yeah.”

“I think we might have taken a bath together.”

(again,  he stated, “I think we might have taken a bath together.”  He had said before that MJ had abandoned the other things he had done to him and that they only took baths.  Now he said, I THINK “we might have taken a bath together”.  He has made serious accusations, to which he was not inebriated, incapacitated or otherwise unconscious, and he “THINKS” these things happened!)

“On one occasion?”

“I don’t know. It may have been one, it may have been not at all.”

(Here Jordan continued to ascertain that they may not have taken baths at all, when he initially said that was what they did when MJ stopped doing the other things to him, which he said was in Monaco.  Euro Disney again, is in Paris, France and this was part of the same trip!  He contradicted himself again.  Again, he initially said that once Monaco happened, they only took baths together, now he said IT MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OR NOT AT ALL.  It is important for you all to see these contradictions in Jordan’s own words.)

“Okay, next phase, next step.”

“Next step, okay. We went home, back to L.A. again. Let’s see, I remember, my dad, just as before, last year, was to help me study for finals, and so I was going to go to his house. And my dad and Michael, they had never met before, I don’t think. And so, I was going to go to my dad’s house and stay over there for, like, the weekend. And he was going to help me study. And that really saddened Michael that we would have to separate. So he stayed over there during that

weekend.”

“At your father’s house?”

“That’s right. That’s the only time.” [Actually, there were two weekends.]

(The two weekends must be an account Dr. Gardner made a note based on Evan’s recollection.  Jordan said that this was the first time that his father had met MJ!  So Evan ONLY met MJ in May and expected MJ to make an extension to his home or buy a new one – which was after the Monaco trip?  No wonder MJ wanted to distance himself if the first thing he asked of MJ was money and to do things for him. MJ had distanced himself from Evan after these visits!  So now, you begin to see why MJ first had a feeling to stay away from Evan.

This is an indication that the story Evan told was not the same as what Jordan told.  Evan made it seem like in the Schwartz-Chandler conversations that they saw each other a lot, but if that was the first two weekends that they met, MJ probably felt Evan was coming on too strong.  Evan stated that he said to MJ “what he wanted out of the relationship at the very start!  Seriously, it is NO wonder MJ wanted to stay away from Evan!

These discrepancies mean that Jordan forgot what to say.  There was a reason why he kept saying IDK, I think, I don’t remember.  This child’s memory cannot be that bad – especially since he said he received A’s in school.  It means his memory to recalling details while studying are excellent.  It means, that without studying, perhaps his memory was not so good.  Which means  he had to practice to remember what to say.  Now this is an important part coming up, read it carefully.)

Okay, we’re talking about June now? June of ’93?”

“Late May.”

“And then?”

“And then he masturbated me there, and one time when he was masturbating me, um, instead, he masturbated me with his mouth.”

“So he put his mouth on your penis?”

“Yes. Then, um, from that point, till the end of our relationship, he masturbated me with his mouth. And that was as far as it went.”

(Again, previously, Jordan said that everything happened before the summer, and now he was getting into June and to the end of the relationship.  If everything happened as he said before the summer, then there would have been no instances in June or July, but as you can see, Jordan was inconsistent and said things happened.  Remember when Pellicano had questioned Jordan on July 9th, which was the last day of the relationship, Jordan stated adamantly, that MJ never touched him sexually.  These discrepancies in JORDAN’s words are very opposite when matched up to other events and thus indicate his lies in his case.)

“About how many occasions did he do that?”

I don’t know but I can tell you where.”

“Where did it take place?”

“In my father’s house, his Hideout, my mother’s house, and Neverland.”

Remember when I stated that it was possible that June and Evan could use Dr. Gardner’s interview against each other?  Well, this is where Evan and Jordan messed up.  Here, Jordan stated that MJ did things to him while at his father’s  house.  While there is no report of that in Jordan’s declaration in December 1993, a month after this interview.

One of Evan’s main part of his plan was to show how “negligent” June was in the care of Jordan – for she allowed MJ to see Jordan, allowed him to stay over, and allowed Jordan to visit MJ.  Evan asked Rothman, the day he took his son to the dentist, to ask Dr. Abrams about a fictitious event regarding child molestation/abuse.  That was on July 12th. (Hughes, 2004) But Dr. Gardner’s note in this interview indicated July 16th via […] on the transcript.  There is no mention of the dentist on the declaration either.

On July 27th and July 15th , Evan had received documentation on how to report abuse without liability to a parent and by a third party and had received word from Dr. Abrams in a report that had the scenario been a true situation, then he would have to report it based on what was said in that scenario.(dates respectively)  Jordan could not have gone to the dentist on July 16th, because Dr. Abrams already got back to Evan about the “fictitious” event, which was predicated on the dentist visit.  These discrepancies in the Chandler’s accounts indicate dates changed, truths stretched, lies inserted, stories fabricated….

Evan wanted custody of Jordan and was going to claim that June was negligent once the child abuse claims were made. Dr. Gardner’s expertise was in false accusations as well as parental alienation and custody cases.  Here is how June would have used it against Evan, because now, Jordan stated that MJ molested him while he was at Evan’s house.  She could then claim he was negligent too.  Evan would not have wanted that to happen, now would he?

Now here is where it gets dicey.  I’ll try to explain it clearly.

Ray Chandler expressed in “All that Glitters” that Jordan slept in bed with MJ at his house after Jordan returned from Monaco (End of May); Evan claimed MJ slept with Jordan in his room at Evan’s house.  And in the book, Ray Chandler claimed in “All that Glitters” that Evan told Ray Chandler that MJ had slept in Jordan’s bed and saw them spooning with MJ’s hand in an inappropriate place- after Evan gave MJ a drug for pain- the same drug Jordan was given when he went to the dentist.  It was also stated in the book that during the dentist visit with sodium amytal, Evan had FALSELY told Jordan that he taped Jordan’s room. On the Schwartz tape, Evan said he DID tape Jordan’s room.  Can’t have it both ways.

Evan said somethings different in the Schwartz-Chandler conversations regarding the time MJ was at his house in May.  This was different by what Jordan relayed in his conversation with Dr.Gardner, for Evan would not have wanted Jordan to mention abuse at his home.  It is very likely that Dr. Gardner caught these discrepancies.

Jordan said MJ went to Evan’s one weekend, but Evan said it was two weekends.  No one mentioned taping anyone’s room to Dr. Gardner.  Evan said on the tapes to Schwartz that he did not know anything was going on between them while MJ visited Jordan at Evan’s home at any time of those two weekend visits- and May had already passed and was the first week of June.  So Evan did not witness MJ cuddling Jordan while MJ was sleeping and had his hand on Jordan’s private area, what he said to Schwartz was different- he NEVER mentioned it to HIM that it happened.  Furthermore, Evan stated to Schwartz that he did not know whether Jordan and MJ had been sexual with each other.  Evan said to Schwartz that he had taped (not falsely) Jordan’s room and heard their conversations. (Chandler, R. “All That Glitters, 2004)

This exact part of these events happening at Evan’s house was NOT mentioned in the declaration.   These are very important inconsistencies on the Chandlers’ parts because it means, that they embellished, fabricated, lied, and omitted information.  

  So this is where June could have used the Dr. Gardner interview against Evan.  Evan may have wanted to use this interview with Dr. Gardner against June. Dr. Gardner said he would interview Jordan’s parents once more after he interviewed Jordan.  Once Evan found out what Jordan said on the transcript, well, he could not USE Dr. Gardner’s evaluation against June, could he?  Certainly not since Jordan stated that sexual abuse occurred at Evan’s home, just as Evan would claim it happened at June’s home.  THAT is motive for another psych consult after Dr. Gardner’s interview.  It could be WHY Feldman had Dr. Katz review it.  Dr. Katz’ was not strong in determining false accusations, as his methods were used in the McMartin case, where over 300 children were later determined to have made false accusations.  Dr. Katz was the director at the time and oversaw the interviewing process in that case.  He stated in 2005 trial when questioned by Mesereau exactly what his position was during that time.  Dr. Katz did perform assessments specifically to determine whether the children had been molested….he was wrong over 300 times.

Referring to Jordan’s declaration in December, 1993, which was approximately one month after Dr. Gardner’s interview, NOTHING was mentioned about MJ molesting Jordan at Evan’s house.    Feldman represented all three Chandlers (June, Jordan and Evan), but the only abuse that was recorded on the declaration was the times when Jordan was in JUNE’s care. Jordan stated clearly in this interview, that molestation happened at EVAN’s home.  A contradiction and inconsistency on the Chandler’s part.

Dr. Gardner would have mentioned abuse in his report IN ALL ENVIRONMENTS, including EVAN’s home.  The conclusion is missing from Dr. Gardner’s report…. it is very possible that whatever Dr. Gardner said was against June and or Evan.  Dr. Katz was brought in and there was not another psych eval from the outside, or that we can tell.  It can be safely concluded that there is a possibility that Dr. Gardner’s assessment was not in favor of the Chandlers, otherwise, the site that displayed the interview would have included it.

“Okay, so these are four different places, so obviously it had to happen at least four times. Right?”

“Oh yeah, of course.”

“But I want you to give me a guess – – “

“Okay. More than fifteen, that’s safe. But he had me masturbate him.”

“On how many occasions?”

“About ten. And he said that – – he had me – – he got me to twist one of his nipples while I sucked on the other and he masturbated himself.”

(Jordan guessed again at how many times, changing his answer from more than 4 to 15!  Again, still no emotional attachment, as if he were reading a story.  Jordan was all too comfortable in relating these sexual experiences, which is unlike a person who was truly abused.  Children, even teenagers, are self-conscious, and emotional when recalling said events.  Jordan was lacking in all this, even in his choice of words.  I’m much older and I have a difficult enough time talking about these things, let alone writing them!)

“Was there ever any anal contact at any time?”

“No.”

“Most men, when they masturbate – whether they be masturbated by someone else or doing it alone – most men have some thoughts in their mind. Sometimes they don’t but most often they do. When he was masturbating you, what thoughts were in your mind?”

“Um, I thought, it’s weird. It’s like it didn’t feel right but yet it felt good, and he was a friend so I didn’t stop him.”

(Another contradiction, he said he did not stop him because he was a friend, and the other things he said in the above statement, BUT previously, he set boundaries with MJ regarding the french kissing?  When previously, he consciously separated himself from the video games, one-sided conversations, and all the activities at Neverland, but NOW Jordan said he was a friend?  Jordan who turned his friend out by making these accusations, hardly supported by his ability to recall distinctly {I think, I don’t remember, I don’t know} and NOW he wanted to associate MJ as HIS FRIEND! Don’t you see how incompatible and incongruous that is to previous behavior?

“Most kids your age start, around your age, start to masturbate by themselves usually without

any kind of experience with another person and kids who (inaudible). Have you continued to masturbate since those experiences?”

“I did, I believe, six times right after the end of our relationship.”

“And not since?”

“And not since.”

“I’m not saying you should, but I’m asking you why you did. I’m asking you what were your reasons?”

“Because, I remember that it felt good when he did it and – – ”

“Okay, why did you stop? I’m not saying you should or you shouldn’t. I’m just saying why did you decide stop?”

“I didn’t (inaudible).”

(Jordan just said not since….he contradicted himself again!)

“That’s it. Let’s separate the feeling from him.”

(Inaudible)

(Inaudible)

“Let’s do this. Let’s take a break for about ten-fifteen minutes and then we’ll continue. So you stretch your legs. Now I want to put it on the record that I’m not going to be talking to you between our meetings. All contact with you, all the things I’m going to say to you will be in this room on this tape. Do we agree that I haven’t spoken to you prior to this day, right?”

“Right.”

“So that’s very important. Okay, so let’s interrupt.”

(Break)

“Do you miss him?”

“No.”

“I’d like to talk to you about how this all came out. By the way, did he say to you that you should never talk to anybody?”

“Yes he did.”

(Another submission to suggestion.  This is like he got this right out of a psychology book, because in previous “profiling”, it was stated that pedophiles, molesters, usually make the child keep it a secret and would say anything to ensure the child would not tell an adult.)

“What specific statements did he make to you in that regard?”

“He said that this – that we had a little box, and this was a secret, and it’s a box that only him and I could share.”

“He was not speaking literally?”

“It was a secret box, like, yeah, pretend we had a box and secrets go in there.”

“A secret, like in a little box?”

“Yeah, you put the secret in the box and nobody can know about what’s in the box but him and me. And he said, once again, he referred to, like, the unconditioned levitators. He said that we weren’t conditioned, but if this box were revealed to other people, like regular people of today’s society, they’re conditioned and so they would believe it was wrong. And so that’s why I

shouldn’t reveal what’s in the box.”

“Do you believe it’s wrong?”

“Yeah.”

(Jordan made another backtrack to tie something into what he said previously.  Just because someone does that, does not mean it is always true.  Look at how many time the Chandlers tried to tie things together and omit things to make the situation look as bad as they wanted?)

//////////////

“How did your parents learn about this?”

“I guess, after we had – Michael and I had stayed that night – – “

“Where?”

“At my father’s, during the finals. He saw that, like, it wasn’t a healthy relationship for me.”

“What did he observe directly in terms of the sexual activities?”

“No sexual activities.”

(Remember that Evan stated that he taped Jordan’s room, then said he did falsely at least according to Ray Chandler’s book to get a confession out of him.  But in the Schwartz-Chandler conversations, Evan told Schwartz that he recorded their conversations and then laughed according to the transcript.  If this were true and they were involved in a sexual relationship, then that would mean that Evan would know.  If He did know, his reaction was to laugh?  A serious thing and he laughed?  Evan then stated that he did not know whether Jordan and MJ had anything sexual between them and further had NO evidence.  Based on all I have written, it IS NOT true that they were in a sexual relationship.  Evan stated that he had no idea what was going on between Jordan and MJ, and his main complaints were that Jordan was being alienated from Evan by June and MJ.  Evan complained that Jordan was copying MJ, emulating him, and had looked up to him.  THAT is what Evan was referring to when he said that MJ was not good for Jordan.  Evan wanted to be Jordan’s hero and ONLY role model.  EVAN discouraged Schwartz any time Schwartz said that Jordan was copying Schwartz!  Evan said it many times and continued to pit people against one another..  When Schwartz asked Evan about how the situation was harmful to Jordan, he said nothing specific to molestation, and that whatever his plan would do to Jordan that he did not care.  Evan said he would ruin everyone.  Evan said that what was harmful was the fact that Evan was being alienated from Jordan.  Evan said the “proof” he had was in reference to his complaints, not molestation.  Everything Evan stated was against JUNE, JORDAN AND MJ….not against MJ alone or June and MJ, all three.  He repeated stated he wanted to destroy everyone the way he felt they hurt him (EVAN).  Evan spoke about his money problems, how he was not working or concentrating.  How he could not pay his bills. 

This situation was about gaining custody over Jordan and relieving his money issues.  When MJ did not come through with the plans to extend Evan’s home or buy a larger one, Evan got upset.  When MJ did nothing to support his screenplay aspirations, Evan got upset at him.  Possibly, that is why he wanted to hurt MJ’s career.  Possibly, he wanted to hurt Jordan because he did not idolize him like he did MJ.  Possibly, he wanted to hurt June because he felt she was poisoning Jordan against him.  That is why he wanted to have custody.  When Schwartz asked about molestation and sexual relations, Evan said he did not know, he did not think so, and that he was a liberal guy…Evan really said it all himself in the Chandler-Schwartz tapes.

Plain and simple.)

“He didn’t observe sexual activities? But there were sexual activities?”

“There was, but he didn’t observe them.”

“What did he observe?”

“He observed Michael and I having almost the same personality, the same interests, the same way of speech.”

(Jordan now verified that Evan had a problem with MJ being Jordan’s role model and the one he looked up to.  Again, Some of Evan’s complaints were that Jordan was copying MJ, emulating him, when he wanted to be Jordan’s hero, THE ONE person in Jordan’s life that he could count on.  He was jealous.  It is not to say that he should not want a relationship with his son. He should.  He should have given his son, and children, the best love and support he could give.  Instead, he pit people against one another and devised the plan to ruin everyone.)

“When you say similar personality – – “

“Like, I would act like him.”

“Did you find yourself consciously doing that?”

“No.”

“Did you make a decision or it just happened?”

“It just sort of happened. Like, the more we hung out together, his personality and his way of speech and everything else would rub off on me. And so he – – Dad saw me alone one time at Cody’s, his pre-school graduation, and he told me ‘You and Michael have lied to me,’ and it seemed like he knew what was going on, without actually saying what was going on.”

(But yet, again when asked by Schwartz, in JULY, Evan stated that he did not think anything sexual was going on between them, that he did not know.  IF Cody’s graduation was in June, and he suspected then, EVAN did NOT vocalize it to anyone.  In JULY, JORDAN stated to Pellicano that MJ did not do anything to MJ upon hearing what the taped conversations were about.  Jordan also stated that his father was only out to get money!  What Evan clearly felt that June was taking Jordan out of his life and “replacing” him with MJ.  It is obvious that June allowed Jordan to see MJ on weekends that he was supposed to see Evan. Course, that would hurt Evan.  She should not have allowed that to that extent.  In July, Evan never stated he thought MJ was molesting his time, the same time that Jordan stated here that he did suspect it.  It is another contradiction.)

“So your father suspected. Is that what you’re saying?”

“Yeah. And he said it in a stern, serious voice, not yelling.”

“Was he speaking to you alone, or – – “

“Alone.”

“When did this happen?”

“I, like, right before my school graduation.”

“That’s May or June?”

June.” [June 9, 1993]

“So what did you say then?

“I didn’t. – – He didn’t ask me what did you and Michael do together.”

(That is incorrect, according to Evan, when he asked Jordan about MJ, or rather that he wanted to ask him to NOT do something- go on tour- Jordan said He would not care.  The issue they were talking about on the Schwartz tape was the upcoming tour, which Evan was not invited, and did not want either June or Jordan to go.  Evan stated clearly, that “they” would not talk to him)

“By the way, going back, did he say, ‘It’s a secret.'”

“Michael?”

“Yeah. In terms of did he make any threats?”

I think he may have said, like, if you tell – – if people say ‘Don’t worry, just tell us, Michael will go to jail and nothing will happen to me you.’ He said that wasn’t true, and I could, like, go to juvenile hall or something.”

(Again, he stated initially MJ said it was a secret, but then I think….or something” and all that above See how Jordan will make a statement and then back it up with “I THINK..IDK, I don’t remember..”)

“That he could go to jail but you’d go to juvenile hall?”

“Something like that.”

“That he himself could go to jail?”

“I don’t specifically remember. I’m almost positive though, that he said about juvenile hall. I’m almost positive he said that, but I do indeed remember that he said that he would go to jail, and that, like, I wouldn’t get off Scott free.”

(Again, he backed it up with “I think, I don’t remember”, but yet he can declare a statement about it that makes it look like it is legitimate.  Jordan stated also “something like that”…pfft)

“Did you believe that?”

“Well, I didn’t really believe it at the time, and I definitely don’t now. But at the time I didn’t really believe it but I said, okay, whatever, and just went along with it.”

“Now let’s see. When your father confronted you at first, what did you say?”

“Well, um, it was an intimidating circumstance, where he was talking to me, and he said, ‘You’ve lied to me, as well as Michael.’ And I said – I was like, fairly nervous. And he said ‘What would you do if I said that I don’t want you to go on the tour.’ Because I was supposed to be on tour with him now. He’s on the tour.”

(Here Jordan stated that what Evan asked him was to NOT go on tour, just as we originally postulated in other MJJJP posts.  In the letters Evan spoke about, he stated that they would have one, no doubt, this was what Jordan’s said in partJordan did want to go, just as June did too.  Evan was determined and said in July that they were not going to go and that they would be lucky if …. {probably whether MJ would talk to them again}  the sentence was not completed, but one can appropriately read the lines and conclude that he was going to say that they would be lucky if MJ even wanted to be involved with them ever again “after tomorrow”. )

“Mmm-hmm.”

“We were planning on going on the tour. And I said, like, ‘I probably would go anyway because I don’t know of any valid reason you have,’ I said to my dad.”

“You still wanted to go on the tour?”

“Yes, at the time.”

“Why is that?”

“Because I was having fun. At the time, the things Michael was doing to me, they didn’t affect me. Like, I didn’t think anything was totally wrong with what he was doing since he was my friend, and he kept on telling me that he would never hurt me. But presently I see that he was obviously lying.”

(And there it is: Jordan stated: Because I was having fun.  Jordan spent time with MJ because he was having fun, fun that he could not have with his parents.  He went places his parents could not afford to take him.  Bought him things that his parents could not in the volume he bought for him because he had a generous hear.  You see, Jordan CHOSE every time to see MJ when the situation arose because HE was having fun.  He JUST inadvertently admitted that he liked to have the fun that was made available to him: the video games, the animals, go carts, and all the other activities that MJ had at Neverland.   Jordan did not see anything wrong with their relationship because MJ was innocent and he did not DO anything wrong.  Jordan stated to friends that MJ never did anything to him.  Mesereau had them on the witness list in 2005 to testify that he told them that in case Jordan would testify.  Jordan told Pellicano that MJ never did anything to him on July 9th.  (Jones, 2007)  There is no mistake in that.  The people’s names were on the witness list, it was going to be public record.)

“You’re saying you didn’t realize it could hurt you? Is that what you’re – – “

“I didn’t see anything wrong with it.”

“Do you see the wrong in it now?”

“Of course.

“What is wrong as you see it?”

“Because he’s a grown-up and he’s using his experience, of his age in manipulating and coercing younger people who don’t have as much experience as him, and don’t have the ability to say no to someone powerful like that. He’s using his power, his experience, his age – his overwhelmingness – to get what he wants.”

(THESE ARE WORDS EVAN CHANDLER USED ALMOST VERBATUM in his taped conversation with David Schwartz., last taped conversation p. 181, line 17-18,  references to how Evan thought MJ manipulates-p. 143, lines 18-19, 143-144 lines 25-1, p. 190, lines 9-12, p. 190, 14-21)

“Alright, so, you finally did tell your father. Who was the first adult you told?”

“My father.”

“How many times did he have to ask you before you told him?”

“Once.”

“The first time he asked, you told him?”

“Well see, at the graduation he said, ‘You guys are lying to me,’ and that was it, he didn’t ask me any questions.”

“And what did you say?”

“I just said, ‘Huh?,” like, ‘I didn’t know.'”

“You made believe you didn’t know what he was talking about?”

“Right. And then he demanded me over to his house, because he knew that the circumstances were wrong. And he, like, I was with my mom and Michael, and he demanded me over to his house. So I went to his house, and he said just for a week and then you can go back. And I really started liking it there. And he had to pull my tooth out one time, like, while I was there. And I don’t like pain, so I said could you put me to sleep? And he said sure. So his friend put me to sleep; he’s an anesthesiologist. And um, when I woke up my tooth was out, and I was alright – a little out of it but conscious. And my Dad said – and his friend was gone, it was just him and me – and my dad said, ‘I just want you to let me know, did anything happen between you and Michael?’ And I said ‘Yes,’ and he gave me a big hug and that was it.”
“And you never gave him the details?”

“No.”

“Now you divulged this when? When did you tell him? In what month?”

“July. I believe July. I remember that because it was very close to my sister’s birthday, which is July.” [It was July 16, 1993.]

(Sodium Amytal incident, however, the date is incorrect. It was July 12th according to other sources.  Evan would have wanted the date to be a miss because then it would fall AFTER he got the information from DR. Abrams about the “fictitious scenario” (which was July 15th according to Hughes)  Evan requested this information in JULY 12th according to Hughes, 2004.  Again, Jordan stated on July 9th to Pellicano that MJ did nothing to him and that his father was after money.  Jordan ONLY made these accusations ONCE HE WAS IN EVAN’s CUSTODY as of JULY 12th, 1993. )

[A discussion ensues about the current and possible future effects on Jordie’s life.] ////

“Are you interested in girls?”

“Yes.”

“Do you find yourself attracted to any boys?”

“No.”

“Have you ever been attracted to boys?”

“No.”

“You see, there are some kids who have an experience such as you describe, who shift from the heterosexual to the homosexual track. Do you know what I mean by that? If you ask them at five, six, seven, eight, they say ‘I’m going to be a fireman when I grow up and I’m going to get married and have children – something like that – and then they stay on that track. But there are some kids, as a result of an experience like you’re describing, that may shift and start moving down the homosexual track. Do you think that’s going to affect you?”

“Well, it may, and I guess that’s why I’m probably in therapy.”

(He IS ALREADY IN THERAPY, SO WHY DID HE NEED TO SPEAK TO ANOTHER PSYCHIATRIST???  Remember what I said previously about this part.)

“Okay, but the question is, have you the feeling now that this may happen to you?

“No.”

“Why do you say that?”

” ’cause – – I like girls!.”

(I don’t have enough room to address that statement.  In short, Dr. Gardner made a suggestion about homosexuality, and Jordan went with it.  What Dr. Gardner said is an erroneous belief about male sexuality to the same sex.  A person cannot be “converted” to homosexuality simply by mere experimentation.  But by Dr. Gardner suggesting it, it shows what JORDAN is susceptible to believing.  Remember all those homophobic jokes in “Men in Tights…” surely at Jordan’s age, he should have questions about sexuality, however, most do know what orientation they are by pubertyThis is an indication that Jordan could have been influenced by adults – or at least by his father’s issues.   The question has some evaluation value and the specific reasons as to why Dr. Gardner would ask, is indicative of his specialty.)

“Do you feel that you could have, somehow, prevented all this stuff with Michael?”

“Yeah.”

“How?”

“Because originally – – Remember I said there were a couple things he did and I said ‘Don’t do that'”?

Yeah.”

“It worked those times, maybe I could have done it – – “

(Jordan stated that once he got back to LA, MJ continued to do the same things sexually, and that he did not stop. So this is another inconsistency.  Jordan stated that MJ discontinued to do what he had done previously to him in another instance, then contradicted that statement as well.  Jordan, who was assertive in those smaller circumstances all of a sudden lost his voice is too far fetched to believe.  It is more than possible that it was set up that way, by whoever was coaching Jordan, to open up to this point where Jordan would assume some responsibility- something that Evan wanted to ensure that THEY – including Jordan- was HURT in the way HE perceived how they hurt him.  But also, as you see in a few lines from here, that Jordan would then declare that MJ was very manipulative, powerful, and you know, as I have stated many times, that this was Evan’s veiwpoint that was instilled upon Jordan. )

“You could have been more forceful. Is that what you’re saying?”

“Yeah.”

“Why weren’t you?”

“It was hard to do.”

“Because?”

“Because he’s an adult, he’s overwhelming, he’s famous, he’s powerful.”

(SAME EXACT WORDS EVAN USED IN THE TAPED CONVERSATION WITH DAVID SCHWARTZ see previous reference)

Were you in awe of him? Do you know what I mean by awe?”

“No.”

“In awe of somebody means that you look up to them like they’re almost a god, or something like that.”

“No. Actually when our relationship got closer and closer I thought less of that. Like most people think that, wow, he’s great, because he can dance and sing. But you know, he’s just like, a regular person.”

“Do you feel guilty about having participated in those acts?”

“Yeah. I regret doing it.”

“What about fears? Any fears of any kind?”

“No.”

“Sometimes people, after experiences of this kind, develop different kinds of fears. You have no fears?”

“Maybe of cross-examination but that’s all. I mean I have nothing to hide, it’s just the thought of it.”

(The only reason to fear cross-examination is regarding the truth.  He said he had nothing to hide, however, Jordan knows that lies can be found out in cross-examination- and he subsequently refused to testify in 1993 AND 2005 which were times he would have been put on the stand.  He feared cross-exam more than justice?  If all he said was true, he would rather MJ to be free to do it to someone else?  Most people may be scared to testify, but they have a conscience to what that person could do to other people, even teens would not want anything to happen to anyone else.  It is simple, Jordan did not want to testify because he knew he was lying.)

[Jordie describes some of the non-sexual activities he and Michael did together.] ////

“It sounds to me, from what you’re describing, he was functioning very much as a child.”

“That’s what he believed he was.”

“You say, psychologically, he believed he was a child? When you were with him – you described the video games – he would play with you child games. Did he ever give any explanation as to why he did that?”

“Because he’s, like, when he was young, like my age, his father would continuously make him work, and like, his father would like beat him and stuff, and he’s trying to relive what he didn’t have as a young boy. Peter Pan is his idol.”

(This is a clear example of how Jordan would relate something partially true and insert something untrue.  Same thing the media did to MJ.  MJ said in interviews how he was treated at home, and also NEVER stated he believed he was Peter Pan.  What MJ said was he was IN HIS HEART.  There is a huge difference in believing that you are Peter Pan than having the essence in YOUR HEART.  A partial truth still is not the whole truth.  The difficult part is analyzing, deciphering fact from fiction.)

“Why is that?”

“Because Peter Pan is forever young, and he goes on adventures and stuff.”

“He could relive all the experiences he didn’t have, but what about the sexual part. How does that fit into reliving? Did he say he had sexual experiences of any kind as a child with some older person?”

“No, not that I know of.”

“Did he say he loved you?”

“Mmm-hmm.”

“You know how you look at a romantic movie sometimes and you see the man and the woman, and the man says how much he loves the woman, how much he adores her and praises her. You know about that?”

“Yeah.”

“Would you say that was the way Michael was with you?”

“Like, it was sort of like a weird kind of love. Like, it was like that but he, he loved me selfishly. Like, regardless of the fact that what he was doing might hurt me, he continued.”

(Notice how Jordan did not directly answer the question.  Jordan KNEW MJ was not IN LOVE with him, as in romantically.  His avoidance to answer the question right off is the alarm.  Remember, Jordan said MJ continued, then did not do any of it, then did only part, then nothing, then only…he changed his story so many times during this interview. 

Jordan was repeating what Evan said.  In the Schwartz- Chandler conversation, EVAN said MJ was selfish. p. 144, line 18.  How would Jordan know that unless EVAN told him or said it to him?  This is evidence that Jordan WAS coached by at least his father on what to say and do.)

“When you say it could have hurt you, how could it have hurt you?”

“Everybody thinks what he was doing could hurt, otherwise it wouldn’t be a crime.”

(Everybody, as in the “everybody” Evan spoke to?  Including Dr. Abrams who had evaluated Evan’s FICTITIOUS circumstance in July?  Pfft.  Evan’s wife did not support what Evan was doing {see Schwartz-Chandler conversation re: Monique}  JUNE said that she did not believe MJ would harm anyone. (again, same reference)  Evan made several references to “professionals” who advised him, but what Evan was talking about was about the alienation, custody battle, financial issues, and NOTHING about molestation.  So this “everybody” did not include EVERYBODY in Jordan’s life.)

“Okay, how could it hurt? As you see it, how could it hurt you?”

“Because – that’s a touchy subject, I guess. It separates you from any other people.”

(another projection of Evan’s words, generally speaking.  Evan’s complained a lot about alienation.  Evan believed that MJ was taking away his family, breaking them up, dividing and conquering.  Evan claimed that no one would talk to him about whatever he had to say.  He said he was ignored- and he stated perceptions continued with the theme of alienation- how it separates from other people- throughout the Chandler-Schwartz conversations.)

“How?”

I don’t know.”

“Just your own guess.”

“It could make me depressed or something, I don’t know.”

“Well, this is important. You say it’s a crime. Why is it a crime?”

“Because, like I said before, he’s using his experience, power, age – – “

(Jordan uses his father’s explanations all in this section- see previous references- Schwartz-Chandler conversation, part 1 and 2 -two is coming soon)

“How could this have left you? If this had gone on and not been interrupted, how could you have ended up?”

“According to his pattern, I believe he would have left me and, sort of dumped me, I guess you could call it. And I would be, sort of, a vegetable.”

Why a vegetable?”

“Because he would continue to do those things and I would have no knowing of what else is out there.”

(Here Jordan is alluding the relationship was CONSENSUAL, in the manner that they were involved in a relationship, yet molestation or pedophilia is a ONE SIDED relationship, as Jordan was trying to create previously by focusing on making a conscious separation from the video games, as example, and three hour conversations where Jordan implied MJ did all the talking etc.  Now Jordan was saying that in essence, he was CONSENTING to it?  Why make the allegation of molestation, if JORDAN was NOW saying that it was mutual?  Pfft.  This is but another inconsistency where Jordan SELECTIVELY associated a kinship between him and MJ at a convenient moment.)

“Say that again. You wouldn’t know what else is out there?”

“Right. Like, he didn’t like it if I would want to call a girl or something. You know, I wouldn’t know, like, there were other options.”

“Are you saying that he would pull you off the track of going out with girls.”

“Right.”

(Oh wow, a whopper here.  Jordan was saying that MJ would SWAY Jordan from seeing girls Jordan’s own age? This perception goes along with the common misconception that MJ was a homosexual.  MJ stated many times he was not.  This is Evan’s belief as HE stated that it would do MJ’s reputation good if he were to be involved with June.  This is another verification that Jordan was coached by Evan because again, these were HIS perceptions about MJ’s not Jordan’s.)

“What would you say is the best thing that ever happened to you in your whole life?”

“When I told my dad what Michael was doing to me.”

“Why do you say that?”

“Because once I told him, I knew that Michael would never be able to do that to me again. And when something horrible ends, it’s most likely the best thing in your life.”

(“Because once I told him” infers that Jordan made a conscious decision to tell his father, however, he stated earlier that he was drugged during the dental procedure. Between the time Jordan claims MJ began this sexual grooming, around February up until the July 13th dental appointment he told his father NOTHING. Also you will see later where Jordan insinuates that he tried to tell his Mom but she wouldn’t “listen”. This  begs a question.  If he tried to tell his mom why did it take amytal for him to tell his Dad? It doesn’t add up)

(This is another one of Evan’s perceptions.  He stated this generally speaking during the Schwartz-Chandler conversations.  He was talking about how when a terrible situations ends and then there is relief.  I will look for the actual reference and edit with the information)

“You say – –

“Like a prisoner being released from prison.”

“But are you saying through all of this, although you enjoyed it, you felt a sense of pressure?

“Yeah.”

“Was it a big heavy on you? Do you know what – – “

“Yeah.”

“Could you describe – – “

“Like, I couldn’t be open with how I felt. Like if I didn’t want to do something I couldn’t just say ‘I don’t want to do that’ because he would start crying or whatever. He wouldn’t just say ‘Okay, whatever, we’ll just be friends and play video games.’ He’d start crying and do everything in his power to convince me that – – “

(Jordan tried to backtrack and declare that MJ’s MO was to make someone feeling guilty, but Jordan did not make this consistent in the interview.  There was a subject that involved his cousin, in that part of the interview, where Jordan did not say that MJ did this at that point.  Jordan was backtracking and adding it in as if it were to substantiate what he previously said.  Jordan changed his story so much and tried to substantiate his statements with I think, I don’t know, I don’t remember many many times.  And again, Jordan utilized the words of “power”, which was a statement Evan made about how he perceived MJ to manipulate.  See past references.)

“But you voluntarily went back there. You could have said, I don’t want to go up to Neverland again, right?

“Yeah.”

“So why did you go back?”

“Because regardless of the fact that I went to Neverland, he would be with me. No matter what, he was always with me. It was like, I couldn’t just say I don’t want to hang out with you today.”

(Jordan stated unbelievably as if to declare that MJ spent ALL of his time with him, when that was not true.  In 1993, MJ was preparing for another world tour, and Jordan never mentioned going to MJ’s rehearsals, so it is VERY unlikely that MJ spent all of his SPARE time with ONLY this family.  MJ had other friends and families that he spent time with, including his own.  Jordan was making it out to be like MJ was in love with him, when Jordan said himself that HE KNEW MJ did not feel that way about him- that they were JUST FRIENDS.  In a couple of lines, Jordan would backtrack again and state that MJ would make him feel guilty, as if that verifies all his accusations.)

“Why not?”

“It’s not that easy. He would cry. He would say ‘You don’t love me anymore.’ It would be, like a whole deal, you know, it was hard.”

“It’s my understanding that your mother kind of facilitated things here.”

“What’s that mean?”

“Facilitate means, she made it easy for him. Another mother might not have believed him with this stuff about ‘It’s okay.’ You know, some mothers would say ‘You’re not sleeping in bed with my kid, I don’t care what you say.’ She got herself talked into it.”

“Right.”

“Is it correct she understands now what was going on?”

“Yes.”

“It seems to me that your mother went along with him. She equally got fooled. Is that correct?”

“Yes.

“What are your feelings about your mother at this point?”

“She was fooled, just like you said.”

“Any feelings about that?

“That I’m sure if she knew what was going on, that she would say there’s no way.”

(A very interesting comment considering this means JORDAN knows what is going on, says if she knew, she would say there’s no way, because she DID say there was no way to Evan.  This part would have been important to Evan for Jordan to say that he felt his mother partly responsible because it was part of Evan’s plan to state that Jordan was harmed while under June’s care ONLY.  Now that Jordan had stated earlier in this interview that sexual things happened while in Evan’s home, he would not be able to use this interview against June. 

The very fact that in Jordan’s declaration, he described details in stages, as suggested by Dr. Gardner, but NOTHING was mentioned about ANY sexual activities in Evan’s home.  Jordan was in EVAN’s care at the time, and so if Evan got this transcript from Dr. Gardner, HE WOULD KNOW that Jordan mentioned that things happened while under Evan’s care also.  Jordan was IN EVAN’s care, so HE COULD HAVE INSTRUCTED JORDAN TO OMIT THAT PART WHEN MAKING HIS DECLARATION.  Jordan was never returned to June, so Evan would have been the COACHING parent.  Remember that custody was part of Evan’s plan and he had received instruction on “how to report abuse without liability to a parent”.  It is clear that Evan was coaching Jordan on what to say and how, and that he used professionals to unwittingly contribute.  It IS CLEAR evidence that Evan used professionals to EDUCATE them as how to write the declaration and for practice.  It would not be beneficial to Evan if Jordan said that things happened while under HIS care.)

“Have you discussed this with her?”

“No.”

“No!”

“Wait, discussed?”

“This whole thing. About her being fooled.”

“No, ’cause, I mean, I personally don’t like talking about it more than I have to.”

“Do you have any other feelings besides she was fooled?”

“No.”

 (So basically the trash that Evan was giving to Jordan was that his mother was responsible, but yet, he had NO other feelings towards her because of it?  If this were true that Jordan was truly molested, it would be natural for him to have negative thoughts and emotions about her, but you see, these emotions are absent.  This means that Jordan was not angry with his mother, because there was NOTHING to be angry about as far as the situation between Jordan and MJ was concerned- other than the fact that because she allowed EVAN to interfere, he lost people who truly cared about him.  Is it any wonder that Jordan was angry with his parents to ask for emancipation from them in after the settlement?)

“I understand from your parents that you’re not spending that much time at your mother’s house. Is that correct?

“That’s right.”

“And at your age and at your intelligence they are basically letting you make that decision yourself. But there are reasons for everything, and what I want to know from you is, what are your reasons why you want to spend so little time at your mother’s house?”

“It’s not really that I don’t want to spend time at my mother’s house. It’s, there’s, I don’t know.”

“There’s always a reason for everything. Guess.”

“I would say it’s because there’s not so many rules at my father’s house.”

(Very first and foremost reason in his mind is rules? Not that his mother didn’t offer him a safe place? Not that he’s upset with this mother for allowing the molestation?  Evan spoke about rules in the Chandler-Schwartz conversations- p 158-9 lines 25-14.  He stated, “they saw who would allow them to do what they wanted to do and so they made their choice”. )

“And what is the reason for that?”

“I don’t know. I guess their values, maybe.”

“What about their values?”

“My father doesn’t believe, for example, in eating the right food every night. You can have candy.”

“Your mother is kind of a stickler?”

“What does that mean?”

“Stickler? Your mother’s fussy and your father’s less fussy about the food. Is that what you’re going to say?”

“Yeah.”

“Any other reasons?”

“It’s not the food specifically, it’s her rules in general.”

“What about her rules?”

“My mom’s rules are more strict. Like, go to bed this time, do homework right when you come home from school.”

(Values and rules are what competent and protective mothers DO give their children. These rules are actually good for children as it teaches them work ethic and eventually, self-discipline.  Evan complained a bit about not being able to do as HE wished, so this is a projection, but also displacement because it seems, JORDAN wanted to do whatever he wanted without his parents saying anything.  Here the truth comes out, in that, Evan stated that “they saw who would allow them to do whatever they wanted to do, where they could do as they wanted to do,and then chose.  It was NOT June that would allow anything to happen, it was Evan…for Jordan states that his father was more lenient that his mother.)

“Any other reasons why?”

“Well, also, at my mom’s house – – the house specifically, or her?”

“Both.”

“Well, I don’t want to spend time at that house because Michael’s presence is still there.”

“It’s like his ghost is still in the house, his aura?”

“Yeah.”

(This is rich…he put it all on MJ at the end…)

“Any other reasons with your mother?”

“Why?”

“You see, because I’m trying to find out what psychological problems or reactions, if any, you had to this experience – which was a mind-blowing experience. I’m sure you agree on that. When you think of all the kids in the world, to have had this experience with that guy, you know, it’s reasonable to say that if you lived to be a thousand you wouldn’t forget it. Am I correct?”

“Right.”

“Okay. And it’s got to have some effects on people: you’re not immune to it. It’s probably the case that it’s not going to affect your sex life. You know it could, but it can have more subtle effects. They’re not as obvious but they are nevertheless effects. I’m trying to find out – – like one of them is, now you have a — you can’t walk into your mother’s house feeling relaxation and comfort because the aura of Michael is there. It’s not a sexual effect but it’s an effect. And it compromises your relationship with your mother. And I’m just wondering about other things, of those effects. That’s why I’m asking you these questions. Do you think it has anything to do with your mother having facilitated. Do you know what I mean by facilitated?”

“No.”

“Your father thinks, and I’m in agreement with him, that she didn’t show enough – although he was such a convincing and seductive guy – that she should have earlier seen that there was some hokey-pokey stuff going on here and pulled you out of there quicker. Do you agree with that?”

“Well, he had me under his spell. So, you know – – “

(so you see, Evan’s influence comes across Dr. Gardner’s words.  Dr. Gardner was apparently trying to see whether Jordan would side with his father, or give perceptions as his father explained to Dr. Gardner.  This is in part, how Dr. Gardner would further evaluate susceptibility to suggestions as well as coaching.  By asking Jordan this question, it is a direct reference to compare what his father said to what Jordan would come to say.  And these were words Evan used, see previous reference)

“His spell? Do you think she was under his spell?”

“Well, he got me under it, so I imagine he could get other people under it.”

“I’m wondering whether you do feel some resentment toward her, and that may be a factor why you’re not seeing her.”

“No. I don’t think so.”

(Dr. Gardner asked again about resentment or EMOTIONS he may harbor against his mother, and so you see, he said NO.  Evan did say though that Jordan would only see June IF HE ALLOWED IT.  Please see previous reference)

“Okay. You know, as I understand it from your parents, and as I can see from what you say, when you’re under his spell he became like, the – – you were being pulled away from your father, from your mother. You know, you were almost like a, you know, drawn in under his web and taken away from your family, and you viewed him as the most important person in your life. Right?”

(Please note that Jordan attest that his mother was a stickler for rules, even while MJ lived in their home. Bedtime,  dinner time, homework, type of foods etc… all of the rules that Jordan, as a normal pre-teen would rebel against. So MJ’s spell didn’t seem to work ALL the time on June? Are we to believe she was a consceintious mother in regards to all the others issues in Jordan’s life but NOT his physical and mental harm at the hands of a molester?) 

“Yes.”

“And under those circumstances you often take on the traits and the qualities of that person. Did you take on any of his qualities?”

“I did when I was with him, but I thankfully got rid of them.”

“What were the qualities?”

“His way of speech.”

“Can you imitate it?”

“He would use words like ‘hook me up’. That means get me something. An erection was ‘lights.’

“Lights was an erection. Go ahead.”

“Cum was ‘duck butter.'”

“Duck butter? That was semen, ejaculate?”

“Yeah.

“So those were his words and you were using those words?”

“Yeah.”

(Jordan says he imitated MJ’s way of speech and when asked which, spoke in terms of  sex related words. If in fact, he adopted MJ’s special words for things ..where are the everyday references?  Surely, Jordan would not use these sexual terms in front of his parents. He spent inordinate amounts of time outside the supposed sexual encounters, it’s incredulous to think that he only picked up sex terms.)

(These last questions and answers are very leading, and considering Dr. Gardner stated he already talked to the parents, which he also said he would again- he knew what they said versus Jordan.  Dr. Gardner would see the similarities, and times in exact speech.  It means he is susceptible to parental suggestions.  This is how Dr. Gardner is going to be able to compare conversations he had with the parents and with Jordan re:coaching.  It is not abnormal for anyone to mimic their idol- but what was happening was not the same.

In 1996, when Evan sued MJ again for the things he said on Barbara Walters with LMP, he made references to a music deal entailing references to Jordan’s supposed molestation, Duck Butter blues…. Evan wrote a SONG about it laughing about it?  Shows that the allegations were not true, but fabricated, for no parent in their right mind would be writing a song about their child’s molestation in JEST or do anything to make money off of it.  No, a parent in their right mind would want one thing: JUSTICE.)

“Anything else that became part of you?”

“No.”

“I want to get clarification with girls. What’s your situation with girls at this point? Your father says that you’re on the phone a lot.”

“Mmm-hmm.”

“Do you talk a lot with girls primarily? Do you spend a lot of time with girls?”

“Mmm-hmm.”

“I see you smiling. Do you have a girl friend at this point?”

“I’m sort of in the process of chasing after one.”

“So you got your eye on her?”

“Yeah, I guess you could call it that.”

“Have you kissed anybody yet?”

“I kissed this one girl.”

“Okay. So, your father seems to think in your relationship with the girls you ask a lot of questions; you’re very controlling. Do you think that has anything to do with Michael.”

“No – – Well, yeah.”

(Oh my, another Projection of Evan’s beliefs and feelings about MJ that Evan transferred to his son. Evan believed that MJ was manipulative and controlling, such as dividing and conquering, manipulating.  These were the words Evan used to describe MJ. )

“How does it relate to Michael?”

“Because, I hadn’t thought of it this way previously, but now that I think of it, since I put too much trust and gave control to Michael in our relationship, now I watch out for myself.”

(Jordan was still talking like a grown up!  These phrases are not the depth to how a teenager would have been accustomed to evaluating issues.  It’s too deep for a teenager.  That is not to say that there are not occasional brilliant teens who are indeed ahead of their time, academically and emotionally.  Jordan was indeed ahead in maturity in some areas, to whereas he showed ability to co-write a screenplay that made it to the movies, however, self-reflection is also an acquired ability that usually is not so deep in the teen years. It is an adult ability to this depth by which Jordan was speaking.)

“What about trust of your mother? Do you think any trust of your mother has been affected?”

“Well, not because she, as people would say, she wanted to pimp me out. More because of maybe, I tried to tell her one time and she didn’t believe me.”

(As people would say?? And not because she “pimped him out? but more because she would not listen to what he had to say??? Umm… what kind of child is this to say they would not be angry at their mom for “pimping them out” more than not listening????  He tried to tell her one time? Pfft)

“When was that? Do you remember?”

“No.”

“How do you feel about that?”

“I feel that if there’s any remote, itty-bitty thing in your mind that your kid may be getting hurt, you should put an army together, you know, if there’s a suspicion as strong as that, that my Dad had carried out this far. She should have at least listened to what I had to say.”

(projection and displacement- these are Evan’s main complaints about how “she should have listened to what I had to say”.  EVAN stated repeatedly how June would not talk to him.  Evan stated repeatedly how HE was willing to “protect Jordan” and “go this far” that he was potentially “ruining his own life to protect Jordan”….these were all phrases and expressions Evan used in the Schwartz-Chandler conversations.  Evan stated repeatedly how HE was alienated, how THEY hurt HIM and how he was going to destroy everyone.  When Evan was asked about whether he thought MJ was molesting his son, he said “I DONT KNOW” and that any proof he did have against them, was NOT in reference to sexual relations between MJ and Jordan.)

[End]

This is the end of the actual transcript.  You can work through this in your mind and believe as you will.  However, I leave you with these concluding thoughts:

The anti-MJ site where this interaction was retrieved from did not include Dr. Gardner’s conclusion from his interview.  We believe the reason the conclusion was omitted because Dr. Gardner’s conclusion may have been pro-MJ- otherwise, the owners of that site would have included it considering everything on that site is meant to dishonor MJ and raise up Chandler’s claims.  It is very possible that the site is owned by someone speaking for the Chandlers, but that investigation has been inconclusive.  (http://www.mjfacts.info/jordie.php)  Regardless whoever owns that site, they have provided us something valuable to our purpose.  While I know that Dr. Gardner would not (more than likely) have had the Schwartz-Chandler tapes, he had interviewed both Chandler parents.  Behaviorally speaking, all that Evan complained about as far as his relationship with June and Jordan, he would have expressed SOME of what he said in those tapes, minus the plan details and the actual hatred he harbored for them.  However, as you can see with some of the explanations Jordan gave to Dr. Gardner were almost verbatim to Evan’s words in the tapes.  Considering that was the angle Evan was stemming on also, it is MORE THAN likely that he would have come from the same angle as he did in those tapes- such as how Evan perceived MJ and how he wanted to come across that June was responsible.  We know with what Dr. Gardner DID reveal in some information as to what his parents told him in their interview collaborating that some things Evan said in the tapes were also said in the interview.  This analysis was NOT to determine what Dr. Gardner was concluding, but the mindset of the Chandlers instead.  Believe as you will.

What is very telling is the content in the 1993 court document when Jordan made his accusations: (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/jacko-original-child-abuse-allegations)  In this document, he tells the story in sequence and in “stages”, uses a “gradual progression” similar as presented in the Gardner interview.  Jordan also left out any details and references regarding anything that Jordan said happened at Evan’s house.  If Evan allowed it, then he could not have used all the information that Rothman provided on how to report abuse without liability to a parent.  That omission clearly demonstrated who was in charge (EVAN).  It is clear evidence that the Gardner interview at least in part, did provide some education, instruction, and practice, whether it was intended or not.

When Jordan was interviewed as indicated in FBI files on whether he would testify in the 2003 case, Jordan stated :

“had no interest in testifying against Jackson” and “advised that he would legally fight any attempt to do so.  (name omitted) believed he had done his part” (http://foia.fbi.gov/jackson_michael/305b-la-239204.PDF)  “DONE HIS PART” stands out because that means Jordan cognitively associated what happened to a role to what he had “done”.  Jordan himself was not concerned about “justice”, an aspect that most victims of child abuse desire.

The fact Jordan said in the interview that he feared “nothing but CROSS-EXAMINATION”…is very telling.  If Jordan was made to lie or been instructed on what to do and say, he would be afraid of questioning.  If what Jordan said happened was the truth, why would he be afraid of cross-examination?  I think had Mr. Mesereau had the chance to cross examine Jordan, it would have been shown that Jordan was coached on what to say and do.  I think Mr. Mesereau would have gotten the REAL truth out of him, even by pointing out Jordan’s inconsistencies along with the friends that were on the list to testify that he told them that MJ never hurt him.  Yes, Jordan did “play his part”, didn’t he?  We realize that Jordan was a child then, and at the mercy of those responsible for his care and that the likelihood that he behaved under duress was extremely likely.  Evan was very determined to hurt all those who hurt him – in the ways he felt they hurt him, and that included hurting June and Jordan as well as MJ.  Evan wanted to hurt June, for she hurt him financially and felt she interfered with his relationship with his son.  So he took him away from her and influenced Jordan to remain out of her life.  He said Jordan hurt him by the role models he chose and for constantly choosing to spend time with other people than the time he was supposed to spend with him.  And MJ… MJ did not support Evan in his screenplay endeavors.  MJ did not do “what Evan wanted out of the relationship”, and so, he hurt MJ’s reputation because Jordan emulated MJ, had him as a role model instead of his own father and hurt MJ’s career to get what he wanted financially. Evan stated repeatedly in those tapes, he wanted “to hurt and destroy them the way they did to him.” That was exactly what Evan did.  Evan stated how he was coached on what to do and say.  He would have wanted Jordan as instructed as he was.  This interview with Jordan is but another confirmation that Evan acted as he said he would and did all that he said in the Schwartz-Chandler tapes.

I’ve pointed out many inconsistencies in this case, though you know I am not a lawyer.  I am certain that if I can see the inconsistencies, a lawyer as seasoned and educated, firmly placed in justice and truth as Mr. Mesereau, that Jordan would have been discredited on the stand if he had been cross examined by him.

Believe as you will.

References

Interview transcript link:  http://www.mjfacts.info/jordie.php

Evan Chandler-David Schwartz transcript of entire phone conversations:

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2010/03/05/evan-chandler-and-david-schwarz-full-transcript/

Jordan’s Declaration, Dec, 1993:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/jacko-original-child-abuse-allegations 

Ray Chandler 70 page request to Quash Subpoena:

http://www.mjfacts.info/resources/102504nommot3rdpty.pdf

Evan Chandler sued MJ again:

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2010/05/15/the-60-mln-case-as-a-final-verdict-for-evan-chandler/

A wonderful analysis by VindicateMJ site:

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/history-vs-evanstory-the-1993-allegations-part-1/

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/reading-between-the-lines-of-larry-feldmans-speech-who-is-dr-katz-part-5/

McMartin case info/PAS/Dr. Gardner links:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/false_memories/fsm110.html (thank you VindicateMJ- this is an excellent resource)

http://deltabravo.net/custody/pas-gardner04.php (PAS and custody battles)

http://www.padirectory.info/Resources/Documents/History%20of%20Parental%20Alienation.pdf (PAS document)

http://ritualabuse.us/ritualabuse/articles/mcmartin-preschool-case-what-really-happened-and-the-coverup/

http://www.forensicpsychonline.com/Terrell.pdf (“How to determine false accusations)

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/mcmartin_daycare/1.html

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcmartin/mcmartinaccount.html

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23 Responses to Psych Interview With Jordan Chandler

  1. thetis7 says:

    There are many issues with this “transcript” and as a professional I have a hard time to believe this is a real one.

    “and so if Evan got this transcript from Dr. Gardner”-There is absolutely no legal way for someone to do that. Sessions do not leave the office unless there is a court order.

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  2. Thank you for your comment and yes, we have thought about the legitimacy of the transcript. A disclaimer has been added. We know that the validity of the Dr. Gardner interview transcript is in question, however, since it was revealed in court that Dr. Katz reviewed it we can assume that the authentic report does exist. The fact that this “hate” site is up and on for millions to view and create the wrong impression, we thought it prudent to give it a professional behavioral analysis. The sourced site’s authorship is also a question, for how were THEY able to obtain it?   The fact that it is presented on an unauthored website, could indicate that they either are wary of presenting this private interview altered or not, or they may be under a gag order not to release ANY Michael Jackson related material. By the looks of the negative slant it could be Ray Chandler behind it, because there was an insertion of an “advertisement” for his book within the transcript they posted. The site had stated that they had that information up on previous sites of theirs, but it was shut down so they found a way to post it again. Whoever owns that site was determined to display it on the internet.

    Much love,
    MJJJP

    Like

  3. Roxy says:

    Could somebody clarify – was this before or after Evan, Jordan, Michael and Anthony had the final meeting in the hotel where Evan read out the statement from the psychiatrist.

    Here Jordan seems like he resents Michael but when they had their final meeting – Jordan ran to Michael and hugged him.

    Like

    • MJ, Pellicano, Jordan and Evan met on August 4,1993 in the hotel room. Upon meeting MJ, both Jordan and Evan greeted MJ with an affectionate hug. In that meeting, Evan used the Dr. Abrams letter outlining the analysis of the HYPOTHETICAL situation that he requested of Dr. Abrams dated July 15, 1993. Dr. Abram’s letter was approximately two weeks before this hotel meeting took place, which demonstrates that Evan was planning to blackmail MJ. The August meeting was when Evan demanded 20 million from MJ or he would ruin him if he did not pay.

      The Dr. Gardner “transcript” was well after the August meeting (October, 6, 1993), and therefore should not be confused with the Dr. Abram’s letter that Evan used to blackmail MJ. We believe that Dr. Gardner was brought in for the purpose of rehearsal for Jordan to make his deposition statement in December 1993. The “molestation ” that Jordan said happened at Evan’s house was conveniently omitted in the deposition on purpose. Jordan stated in the Dr. Gardner interview that he feared cross examination, which means that he was afraid he would not be able to keep his story straight, even after such extensive practice. Jordan said in the FBI interview in 2004: “I have done MY part”, alluding that what he did for the 1993 allegations was a ROLE he PLAYED. Jordan moved three times so he would not have to do any more and avoided testifying at all costs. The problem is that there is so much BS out there, that it makes it difficult to see the bottom line of what happened. The bottom line is, Evan had planned to blackmail MJ and extort money and he was using the situation to get custody over Jordan. Evan stated many times in the Chandler-Schwartz conversations that he “wanted to hurt them as they hurt him”. Evan did all that he said he would do in the Schwartz-Chandler conversations.

      (https://mjjjusticeproject.wordpress.com/2011/04/19/chandlers-behavior-and-words/)

      thank you for your question,
      Much love,
      MJJJP

      Like

  4. Pingback: Trasncript Analysis- Chandler’s Behaviors and Words- Part 2 | mjjjusticeproject

  5. MIKY says:

    ..THE COUSIN” IS A REFERENCE AT BRETT BARNES, I BELIEVE…I DID NOT SAW ON TV MICHAEL COUSIN TO DEFENDE HIM…BUT I SAW BRETT BARNES

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  6. jacksonaktak says:

    This is from June Chandler’s testimony:

    6 Q. Do you recall anyone watching an Exorcist

    7 movie?

    8 A. I was told Jordan and Michael watched an

    9 Exorcist movie.

    10 Q. All right. Did you ever object to Jordie

    11 sleeping in Michael’s room on that trip?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And what did you say?

    14 A. “Jordie, when you come home, go to your bed.

    15 Go to your own bed. Come to our bed, not to

    16 Michael’s bed.”

    17 He said, “Mom, I want to stay there.” And I

    18 was very upset about that.

    So was it Michael who wanted Jordan to sleep there, or was it Jordan who wanted to sleep in Michael’s room?

    Like

  7. Jon says:

    Interesting that you mentioned at one point his choice of words were like a screenplay–he and his father worked on the Robin Hood: Men in Tights screenplay. Of course, they’d both rehearse words like a screenplay.

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  8. Pingback: Dr. Richard Gardner pszichiáter interjúja Jordan Chandlerrel |

  9. jacksonaktak says:

    Hi!

    Here is something I found about Dr. Richard Gardner. These are quotes from his book:

    “Because Gardner ‘s PAS theory is based on his clinical observations–not scientific data–it must be understood in the context of his extreme views concerning women, pedophilia and child sexual abuse.
    “There is a bit of pedophilia in every one of us.” Gardner, R.A. (1991). Sex Abuse Hysteria: Salem Witch Trials Revisited . Cresskill, NJ: Creative Therapeutics. (p. 118)

    “Pedophilia has been considered the norm by the vast majority of individuals in the history of the world.” Gardner, R.A. (1992). True and False Accusations of Child Sex Abuse . Cresskill, NJ: Creative Therapeutics. (p. 592-3)

    “It is because our society overreacts to it [pedophilia] that children suffer.” Gardner, R.A. (1992). True and False Accusations of Child Sex Abuse . Cresskill, NJ: Creative Therapeutics. (pp. 594-5)

    “Pedophilia may enhance the survival of the human species by serving “procreative purposes.” Gardner, R.A. (1992). True and False Accusations of Child Sex Abuse . Cresskill, NJ: Creative Therapeutics. (pp. 24-5)

    Pedophilia “is a widespread and accepted practice among literally billions of people.” Gardner, R.A. (1986). Child Custody Litigation: A Guide for Parents and Mental Health Professionals . Cresskill, NJ: Creative Therapeutics, (p. 93)

    Gardner suggests that children want to have sex with adults and may seduce them. Some children experience ” high sexual urges in early infancy. ”

    “There is good reason to believe that most, if not all, children have the capacity to reach orgasm at the time they are born.”
    Gardner, R.A. (1992). True and False Accusations of Child Sex Abuse . Cresskill, NJ: Creative Therapeutics. (p. 15)

    Children are naturally sexual and may initiate sexual encounters by “seducing” the adult .
    Gardner, R.A. (1986). Child Custody Litigation: A Guide for Parents and Mental Health Professionals. Cresskill, NJ: Creative Therapeutics (p. 93).

    If the sexual relationship is discovered, ” the child is likely to fabricate so that the adult will be blamed for the initiation .”
    Gardner, R.A. (1986). Child Custody Litigation: A Guide for Parents and Mental Health Professionals. Cresskill, NJ: Creative Therapeutics (p. 93).

    Gardner on therapy with children who are sexually abused by their father: Keep the child connected to the abuser
    Special care should be taken not alienate the child from the molesting parent. The removal of a pedophilic parent from the home “should only be seriously considered after all attempts at treatment of the pedophilia and rapprochement with the family have proven futile.”
    Gardner, R.A. (1992). True and False Accusations of Child Sex Abuse . Cresskill, NJ: Creative Therapeutics.(p. 537)

    The child should be told that there is no such thing as a perfect parent. “The sexual exploitation has to be put on the negative list, but positives as well must be appreciated”
    Gardner, R.A. (1992). True and False Accusations of Child Sex Abuse . Cresskill, NJ: Creative Therapeutics.(p. 572)

    • Tell the child that sexual abuse by a father is normal

    Older children may be helped to appreciate that sexual encounters between an adult and a child are not universally considered to be reprehensible acts. The child might be told about other societies in which such behavior was and is considered normal. The child might be helped to appreciate the wisdom of Shakespeare’s Hamlet, who said, “Nothing’s either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.” Gardner, R.A. (1992). True and False Accusations of Child Sex Abuse . Cresskill, NJ: Creative Therapeutics.(p. 549)

    To me some of these quotes sound very much like quotes from those pedophile advocates. So it makes me wonder about Dr. Gardner and the Chandlers’ motives to bring Jordan to him. It certainly puts this interview in a somewhat new perspective, although the bottom line doesn’t change.
    But it makes me wonder if Dr. Gardner was one of those professials who helped to prepare the Chandlers about what to say.

    The Chandlers story of “molestation” is like the picturebook story for pedophile advocacy. Jordan not knowing what’s wrong with it, apart from society considering it wrong, talking about it almost like a consensual romance and so on. There is something very, very wrong with the picture of how the Chandlers portrayed the alleged molestation! And since they were surrounded by pedophile advocates, such as Victor Gutierrez and – perhaps – Dr. Richard Gardner,it’s not so surprising after all that they had this twisted idea of child molestation.

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    • Hello, @jacksonaktak thank you for your comments. 🙂 I understand how these quotes would be very concerning….

      Dr. Gardner did research and found pedophilia to be accepted in other cultures for a variety of reasons. Dr. Gardner’s views about pedophilia and molestation as in the quotes you mentioned were in reference to when molestation actually did occur in societies, however they are taken out of context. Dr. Gardner was simply saying that a society’s view upon pedophilia will determine social acceptance or not, therefore these views and beliefs would determine whether the acts would receive punishment or taken a blind eye. Dr. Gardner was simply recognizing that certain behaviors are accepted in other cultures and different areas of the world in comparison to the USA, but by no means was that an admission of his acceptance of those behaviors. Most construed his statements as someone who condoned pedophilia, rather than someone who was researching an aspect of behavior and societal thoughts of other cultures. Dr. Gardner was heavily criticized for all those quotes you mentioned, but they are out of context to his original writing. Dr. Gardner’s work should be read in its entirety and in the original context. Much of Gardner’s work had been taken out of context and misrepresented over the years, so it does not surprise me that you found these quotes – they appear taken out of context when you saw them for I too have found at least two links that cited the same quotes that you showed us. Verbatim.

      Dr. Gardner was not a pedophile advocate nor did he ever condone the behaviors of pedophilia. In the words of Dr. Gardner himself:

      http://www.fact.on.ca/Info/pas/misperce.htm That link is a VERY important read because Gardner addresses all fallacies about him, his views and his work.

      Dr. Gardner is very clear on his views with pedophilia, child custody cases and false accusations. He was well known attending to court cases in 30 states since the 1960’s and he stated that he was well known in the judicial field, recognized by many courts. Dr. Gardner’s expertise was in custody battle cases, PAS and false allegations. These things WERE his focus, his training and his work for over 30 years at that time. Each one of Gardner’s area of expertise was detrimental to Evan’s plan and information Dr. Gardner assessed during their consult would have been of great interest to the Chandlers. Gardner’s expertise was so highly specialized: custody battle cases, expert in determining false accusations, and expert in Parental alienation. Really think about that for a second.

      In the review of Dr. Gardner’s interview with Jordan, these aspects were revealed at the beginning of the interview:

      1. Larry Feldman sent Jordan to be interviewed by Dr. Gardner and the statement Dr. Garnder made to Jordan “Gardner explained to Jordan that there were someone who claimed he might be lying and that one of the purposes of the interview was to find out the truth.” Since Dr. Gardner was well known in many courts in 30 states, it does not surprise me that Feldman thought to refer the Chandlers to him. Feldman was the Chandler’s lawyer (only after Evan dropped Rothman once June and the family was on board with the allegations). Dr. Gardner’s expertise in false accusations would have been an attraction for the Chandlers for if they could fool a leading expert in false accusations, they could fool anyone and that is more likely the reason for the referral. I doubt Feldman had a sudden attack of conscience to see whether Jordan was lying for his own integrity, but I can see for his own and his client’s INTERESTS. Feldman had a financial interest to help the Chandlers because he stood to make a ton of money by representing them and Evan’s interest was to obtain his goals regardless what he had to do to get there (Evan had no integrity other than genuine deceitfulness and vindictiveness). They never said WHO said Jordan was lying and Dr. Gardner never revealed who, but that ambiguous “who” could have been simply a diversion for a consult to appear genuinely asked. Evan had a plan that he wanted to ensure happened. Of course Evan would be interested if anyone could tell if Jordan was lying and it would not be past him to claim “someone said Jordan was lying”. It appears that Dr. Gardner was asked to determine genuinely for a false accusation by a Lawyer for consult- by a lawyer who wanted to ensure his client would win, or was Feldman a lawyer who wanted to cover for what he was told someone said? A good question. Larry Feldman was against MJ not only with the Chandler case, but also with the Arvizos as the Arvizos consulted with Feldman too. If MJ or his team said that Jordan was lying, then the consult would have come from MJ’s lawyers, and that did not happen. It came from Feldman, Chandler’s lawyer.

      Gardner claimed he honored APA ethic codes faithfully throughout his career. Gardner was under much scrutiny and criticism for phrases about pedophilia, he would not have taken a chance to SHOW HE was unethical by helping a family LIE about allegations for them to get away with it for it would ruin his career and integrity later on if uncovered. I believe he would not have chanced his license and career. Gardner had always stood up against false allegations and for him to go the other way, does not make sense. He did not need the money, he had a thriving career on his own. I believe Gardner genuinely did not know they were playing him, though I do believe that he DID figure them out to a point. Evan’s purpose to have Jordan interviewed by Gardner fit his scheme plan on more than one level.

      2. The odd statement indicating Gardner was usually used for the “defense” indicated that the Chandlers were presenting as a united front when they were sent to Gardner. Additionally, the interview findings could have provided BOTH June and/or Evan something against one another in the custody battle, especially considering his expertise on PAS. Dr. Gardner stated ONE reason for the consult was to determine false accusation, meaning, there was more than one reason. Gardner’s expertise, all three areas, would be of GREAT interest in the Chandler’s custody battle, which was still on going at the time of Gardner’s interview.

      Dr. Gardner stated he would recommend a custody change in both male and female parent cases in custody battle cases with both mild and severe PAS. Think about what that would mean to both Evan or June. With PAS, either mild or severe, and regardless against the mother OR father, he would have recommended a custody change, thus it is a motive for Evan and June.

      Considering Gardner said he usually worked for the defense, it meant the Chandlers were presenting as a united front. Evan was highly manipulative and would have done ANYTHING to get what he wanted, at the time he wanted June in her “place”, and he had betrayed her trust quite a few times before. June had been duped by Evan when Evan asked to have Jordan for a week and then he never returned Jordan to June’s care, and he never intended to return Jordan. Evan also made her sign a paper then, forgiving all the money he owed her and future money while Jordan was with him. June testified in the custody hearing that she signed that paper under duress. Evan threatened she would never see her son again, which is prime motivation for her to go along with Evan’s plan.

      The Dr. Gardner interview with Jordan was an initial assessment based on the way the interview was conducted. All therapists begin assessments with an explanation of the interview process, reason for consult and expectation on the first meeting because it is part of the protocol for disclosure and informed consent ethic regulations with individuals of appropriate age for such a formal explanation. (APA Code of Ethics, 2002) As part of the family history, it would have been revealed that the Chandlers were divorced and in a custody battle, but if both parents left that information out, Gardner would have still known there was a divorce and still would have assessed for PAS anyway because Jordan was NOT spending time with his mother and was solely in Evan’s custody predominantly after the allegations were made in mid August 1993. Jordan revealed quantity of time he spent with his mother during the interview in so many words. Gardner would have then naturally assessed for PAS, just to rule it out if possible. Jordan used several phrases that Evan used in the Chandler/Schwartz taped conversations. Evan would have explained at least to Gardner how HE thought MJ was abusing Jordan because it was part of his plan to extort money from MJ through false allegations. Evan’s and Jordan’s phrases in similarity of explanation would have alerted Gardner the possibility of the presence of PAS, and ethically, he would have HAD to explore it once uncovered.

      Gardner expressed “ONE of the reasons”, which means there WAS more than one reason for the consult, but his only other areas of expertise was PAS and custody battles. All that information was critical to the Chandlers. In order for Dr. Gardner to determine whether the parents were using the child against each other and aspect of parental alienation, he would have to assess both parents separately, which he did. Then he began the assessment with Jordan after meeting with both parents. Dr. Gardner would have had an ethical responsibility to assess not only for false allegation as agreed in consult, but also for PAS, and whether the parents were using Jordan against one another – especially since there was a truly custody battle. Dr. Gardner stated he followed the APA Ethics faithfully.

      Evan manipulated the system for temporary custody in August, 1993, before the Gardner interview. If you remember, Evan took Jordan on week’s stay in July that year, never returned him. It was not until the judge told him he had to return Jordan to June, Evan didn’t return Jordan but he took the next step to further his plan. Instead, he took Jordan to make the allegations to Dr. Abrams, knowing that a court would give HIM temporary custody since Jordan claimed that molestation happened at June’s home. Since, Evan would have had to have presented as a false united front to Gardner with June, to continue to blame her at the time of the Gardner interview would have potentially ruined his plan. June would have had to go along with it because she was afraid she would never see Jordan again. But you see, Evan’s goal was to have permanent custody, so the battle was not over at the time Jordan had the interview with Dr. Gardner.

      Evan stated clearly in the Schwartz (June’s husband) conversations, that he had professionals helping him, shopped and paid for them, and that he was coached on what to say and do every step of the plan. Evan said in those taped conversations that he would NOT allow anything or anyone to deviate from the plan, bragged about being coached and how well it was planned that he would not “lose”. Evan would have wanted his family to have been equally coached. However, we can’t assume Dr. Gardner was a willing participant to the point of knowing all of Evan’s plan beforehand, but we can safely assume that every person Evan sought was because they were integral to implementing his plan in some way. (Evan stated he shopped around for professionals.) “To help him” can be interpreted in a couple different ways: as educational purposes for advice, for a genuine consult, rehearsal, or because they would say what Evan wanted them to if he paid them a hefty price. Dr. Gardner said he did pro bono work (work for free), hence another attractive attribute for the Chandlers- they would not have had to pay him for a consult. Another motive for the Chandlers to go to Gardner.

      Evan had a clear cut agenda: 1. Gain custody of Jordan, 2. ease financial obligations in more ways than one, 3 sever the relationships between Jordan and June, MJ from Jordan AND MJ from June (in short). EVERYTHING Evan did was to ensure success in achieving his goals in the plan.

      Evan clearly stated he wanted to “hurt them the way they hurt me”. Evan felt June was coming between his relationship with Jordan and he owed her child support, which he got June to forgive during this time very effectively. Evan did sever the relationship between Jordan and June, As it turned out, Evan ensured Jordan did NOT have a relationship with June, just as he said he would. June stated in the 2005 trial she had not seen her son since shortly after the end of the allegations. June claimed in custody judge in hearings that she signed papers under duress because Evan threatened she would never see her son again- June had always maintained that MJ’s relationship with her son was not sinister in nature, but she changed her tune once Evan threatened her that she would NOT see Jordan again when he made her sign those papers. Jordan valued his relationship with MJ more than Evan and elected to visit MJ at times when Jordan was supposed to see Evan, and June allowed it. This gave way for them to say the impression that MJ’s relationship with Jordan was consensual, though they twisted the connotation and meaning of “relationship” to mean something sexually intimate- and these actions set the groundwork to hold June was accountable because she allowed Jordan to see MJ. Evan felt that MJ ruined his reputation as a father (so he ruined MJ’s reputation as a public figure), and MJ did not assist Evan in his screenplay work (so he extorted money from him to get it- and during the negotiations Evan was demanding from MJ, was for MJ to endorse multimillion dollar screenplays). Evan owed money to many people, so he used the opportunity to satisfy financial obligations and to achieve each point of his agenda. All of these things are what Evan said he would do, it is what he did, and it is what he achieved. EVERYTHING EVAN DID was to ensure his plan would be successful. He stated clearly that all this was what he would achieve”if he went through with the plan and did not deviate”.

      Additionally, behaviorally speaking, yes, Jordan presented his relationship with MJ as consensual and that he did not see anything wrong with their relationship, because Jordan had to have some way to explain why he chose to visit MJ more than his father, which would be to Evan’s benefit for his plan if Jordan stated it as if their relationship was consensual. This way, Evan could place parental liability on June at some other time because June allowed Jordan to visit MJ. By Jordan talking like he didn’t know better, they thought the words phrased that way would implicate MJ, because HE was an adult and SHOULD have known better by US social standards. Jordan saying neither parent knew, would have temporarily replaced blame from June and Evan to implicate only MJ. That was all Evan needed at the time of the interview. He would have later turned the blame to June and MJ for permanent custody, as he said permanent custody from June was part of his agenda. Remember, Jordan did help Evan make “Men in Tights” – a screenplay that was extremely filled with sexual innuendos and homophobic jokes. You cannot tell me that Jordan did not know the difference to appropriate relationships and that he believed that same sexed sexual relationships were ok.

      To analyze for what you said, @Jacksonktak, If Dr.Gardner assumed that MJ was from a culture where pedophilia was accepted, Dr.Gardner could say MJ didn’t know better, but that was not possible. Ethically, Dr. Gardner could not assess MJ when he had not interviewed him to determine that aspect of MJ’s beliefs. Based on Dr. Gardner’s words here: http://www.fact.on.ca/Info/pas/misperce.htm, Dr. Gardner said in many ways how he followed APA Ethic Codes. It is not ethical for Dr. Gardner to assume or say that MJ’s culture accepted pedophilia or that he was pedophile without interviewing him. Gardner was NOT to assume anything about MJ when evaluating Jordan for false allegation against MJ, for it is unethical for a doctor to allow such a biased assumption. Whether “consent” was initiated by Dr. Gardner or not, it would not have changed the way things happened anyway.

      The “stages/progression” was introduced by Dr. Gardner first. Jordan immediately went along with the suggestion. In the interview, Jordan expressed a lot that he “didn’t want to mess up, or say things wrong”, and said for Dr. Gardner to ask his parents to fill in “information” if he did not remember “correctly”. This demonstrates he was scripted and coached to make the allegations as instructed and perhaps by going along with the stages, was how it was already rehearsed, thus easier for Jordan to remember what to say. Jordan WANTED to have the interview conducted under HIS control (he alluded so during the interview when HE told Dr. Gardner “first I will talk about this, then I will get to that”). Evan stated that he was coached on what to say and do, so it is likely Evan had Jordan coached, which would reinforce why Jordan said he didn’t want to say things “wrong”. Jordan so willingly went along with the “stages” more than likely it was because it was easier for him to remember what he was coached to say. Jordan’s behavior and words in the interview indicated his own thought process, along with other things.

      Evan stated that he “shopped” for professionals, so you bet Evan researched Dr. Gardner well as he did any other professional he shopped for. Gardner had such a specialized training in areas that were integral in education in order for Evan’s plan to be successful. They way they behaved with Gardner, and based on which reports they used against MJ, behaviorally speaking, that Dr. Gardner was not knowingly helping them in their web of lies. Evan received documents on “How to report child abuse without liability to a parent” earlier summer of 1993. In the Gardner interview, Jordan claimed that MJ molested him while at Evan’s home. Since Evan wanted custody of Jordan and he was granted temporary custody when Jordan made the accusations that MJ molested him in June’s home, it was damaging for Jordan to say in the Gardner interview that molestation occurred while in Evan’s home. Jordan just simply messed up and obviously Evan recognized it. Subsequently, Jordan left out these claims of molestation at Evan’s house in his declaration in December of 1993, and he deliberately included implication of liability to June by saying molestation happened at her house. Jordan was still in Evan’s custody during that time and there is no doubt in my mind that Evan influenced Jordan to make his claims. The fact that Jordan did change his statement that December reveals he was influenced by someone to do it and used Gardner’s interview as practice. The fact that Jordan’s statements in the December declaration was so heavily polished and mirrored the interview in many ways, demonstrates they used it for practice. The table was turned once again back to liability to both June and MJ which suited Evan’s plans to a T, just as Evan expressed how he wanted it to be perceived. This lends to the conclusion that Dr. Gardner was used as practice and instruction for them all because of how Jordan’s claims changed after meeting with him and for the fact that the consults the Chandlers used were ONLY Dr. Abrams and Dr. Katz assessment of Gardner’s evaluation of false allegation. If Gardner was in agreement with the Chandlers, they would have used Abrams report, Dr. Gardner’s report AND Dr. Katz would have been used for extra “support”, but you see, they did not use Gardner’s report other than for their own instruction and practice for it was NOT combined with Dr. Katz report and the one made previously by Dr.Abrams..

      After all, Dr. Gardner was a leading expert on false accusations regardless the context. In Dr. Gardner’s interview on the internet, all of Gardner’s conclusions are missing. It is VERY possible that the conclusions were missing because of the possibility that Dr. Gardner felt Jordan was lying about his claims of molestation, and could have determined that the parents were using Jordan against one another in their custody battle.. otherwise, it would have been Dr. Gardner’s COMPLETE reports the Chandlers would have used against MJ. Instead, the Chandlers used Dr. Abrams report and Dr. Katz’ evaluation of Dr. Gardner’s assessment of Jordan when presenting their case against MJ.

      The Chandlers used Dr. Gardner for his expertise on false accusations to see if Dr. Gardner could tell if they were lying and inadvertently, the interview served as practice for when Jordan made his official declaration in December of 1993. Furthermore, Dr. Gardner’s expertise included parental alienation. He stated that there were 8 criterion for PAS:

      “Similarly, the PAS is characterized by a cluster of symptoms that usually appear together in the child, especially in the moderate and severe types. These include:

      1. A campaign of denigration
      2. Weak, absurd, or frivolous rationalizations for the deprecation
      3. Lack of ambivalence
      4. The “independent-thinker” phenomenon
      5. Reflexive support of the alienating parent in the parental conflict
      6. Absence of guilt over cruelty to and/or exploitation of the alienated parent
      7. The presence of borrowed scenarios
      8. Spread of the animosity to the friends and/or extended family of the alienated parent

      Typically, children who suffer with PAS will exhibit most (if not all) of these symptoms. This is almost uniformly the case for the moderate and severe types. However, in the mild cases one might not see all eight symptoms. When mild cases progress to moderate or severe, it is highly likely that most (if not all) of the symptoms will be present. This consistency results in PAS children resembling one another. It is because of these considerations that the PAS is a relatively “pure” diagnosis that can easily be made. As is true of other syndromes, there is an underlying cause: programming by an alienating parent in conjunction with additional contributions by the programmed child. It is for these reasons that PAS is indeed a syndrome, and it is a syndrome by the best medical definition of the term.” (Gardner, 1999)

      I can identify 7 of 8 of those characteristics in Jordan’s behaviors (in more ways than one for each criterion) just with what we have shown you all, I am SURE Dr. Gardner would have identified it also. No matter what fact I put up against another, the same conclusions are resulting. That means, my assessment IS correct and sound, so thank you for pointing these quotes out regarding Gardner. It made me re-assess with your concerns in mind and I am satisfied with the additional evaluation. 🙂 I see what you are saying and you bring up some good points, but in evaluation and consideration of what you said, I made this additional assessment. I apologize in advance that my response was so long, however, I thought it important to address you completely here. You have a way of looking into things that is outside the box…don’t lose that quality, for it is a very good one to have. 🙂

      Much love to you,

      LoveLightMagic

      Resources

      APA Code of Ethics, 1992-2002 comparison in entirety. http://www.apa.org/ethics/code/92-02codecompare.pdf In 1999, the ethics of psychology used were from 1992. Today, the ethics codes used in psychology is the updated version dated 2002. The code I was referring to didn’t have many changes.

      Gardner, R.A. (1992). True and false accusations of child sex abuse. Cresskill, NJ: Creative Therapeutics.

      http://www.fact.on.ca/Info/pas/misperce.htm

      http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/res/dallam/2.html

      https://mjjjusticeproject.wordpress.com/2011/04/19/chandlers-behavior-and-words/ Part one

      https://mjjjusticeproject.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/trasncript-analysis-chandlers-behaviors-and-words-part-2/

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  10. jacksonaktak says:

    @ MJJJusticeProject

    Thank you for the answer!

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  11. Pingback: It’s Not Up To Michael Jackson’s Fans To Prove That He Was Innocent; It’s Up To Michael Jackson’s HATERS To Prove That He Was GUILTY! « Vindicating Michael

  12. I think you got a mistake, when you said Dr. Abram is a expert in child molestation and false alegation of child molestatio. Dr. Gardder is.

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    • Dr. Gardner and Dr. Abrams had similar specialties that were of interest to Evan Chandler in order to carry out his plan. Both were specialists in assessing abuse and false allegations, but Dr. Gardner was considered the foremost expert in false allegations and custody battles. Evan Chandler’s main issues are as follows: he had no money to pay for his bills, though he was a dentist and had a viable practice, he didn’t have custody over Jordan, and finally, he wanted to hurt his ex-wife “the way she hurt him”. He wanted to hurt June, Jordan and MJ “the way they hurt him”. Before his extortion attempt, Chandler had negotiated with Michael Jackson specifically for a screenwriting deal to the tune of 20 million dollars. Since Michael would not agree to any screenwriting deal, Evan resorted to extortion where he and his son would claim molestation. Since the story was not true, Chandler needed to get his story straight and he paid for and used many professionals on how to be successful in his extortion ploy. His extortion plot was then the only way he could either get money for the bills and money he “needed” or get a screenplay writing deal (which would give him money to pay all his bills and then some).

      Based on behavioral analysis, Evan Chandler used these professionals toward his purpose and to obtain his goal to extort money from Michael Jackson and/or to gain his financial support on manuscript deals. That is not to say that these professionals were cognizant of the details of his plan, nor that they were willing participants. Evan Chandler stated to David Schwartz that he had paid a lot of money for professional coaching as to what to do and say, which is why there was more than one psychologist who had assessed Jordan Chandler.

      Dr. Abrams was the doctor who reported the allegations to the Department of Social Services, but Jordan had another psychologist treating him, supposedly as he stated in this interview with Dr. Gardner. Then the Chandlers went to Dr. Gardner for another assessment….now, unless all doctors were incompetent in their treatment, or there were no other issues “outside of anyone’s expertise” or issues between the client and doctor, there is no clinical reason for referral. The ONLY reason Chandler used multiple doctors was for the purpose of practice and coaching his son on what to say and do, just as Evan had been coached on what to say and do. Every professional Evan hired gave him valuable information in effort fine tune their allegations, whether the professionals knew how Evan would use the information or not.

      “Had Michael Jackson paid the twenty million dollars demanded of him in August, rather than the following January, he might have spent the next ten years as the world’s most famous entertainer, instead of the world’s most famous child molester” (Raymond Chandler, All That Glitters)

      Which of course goes to the question, what parent would want money before justice if their child was really molested? Any parent in their right mind would want the perpetrator behind bars over anything else. Instead, Evan Chandler negotiated a 20 million dollar script writing deal, not specifying for any kind of “punitive damages or treatment”, which means there was NO molestation. When MJ didn’t agree to a 20 million screenwriting deal, he then went ahead with the allegations.

      In any case, both Dr. Abrams and Dr. Gardner had similar specialties, but were hired for different reasons.

      Much love,
      Lovelightmagic

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  13. Pingback: April 7th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Ralph Chacon (Direct & Cross Examination), Adrian McManus (Direct & Cross Examination), Part 1 of 5 « Michael Jackson Vindication 2.0

  14. Pingback: April 7th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Ralph Chacon (Direct & Cross Examination), Adrian McManus (Direct & Cross Examination), Part 3 of 5 « Michael Jackson Vindication 2.0

  15. When reading this article, please keep in mind that the source of the interview entails ONLY the transcript of Jordan Chandler’s initial interview, but it does not include any other interviews. The findings after all interviews and evaluations are completed would have been detailed in a conclusion or finding section as another report as an attachment. Also, remember that Evan Chandler had stated in the taped conversations that he had extensive “instruction” for what to say and do at planned times depending on development and progression of implementing Chandler’s plans. This interview would have inadvertently provided insight valuable to the Chandlers, not only for their custody battle dispute, but as purpose of PRACTICE and INSTRUCTION in order to FOOL everyone else into believing Jordan’s accusations were true. This transcript of the interview between Dr. Gardner and Jordan Chandler is NOT complete, as it does not include ANY evaluation findings written by Dr. Gardner as to whether he believed Jordan was molested or not. The fact the clinician’s findings are omitted means that Dr. Gardner determined Jordan was LYING and possibly further that he saw through Evan as it was Evan’s purpose to ALIENATE June from Jordan to gain custody. You can be assured that if the Chandlers had Dr. Gardner’s support in the belief that Jordan was NOT lying, the mjfacts site WOULD have included it with the transcript on their site.

    First, there was no obvious clinical reason (as in not for “treatment or diagnosis purposes”) for consult and it is stated that Jordan was sent for further evaluation BY CHANDLER’S LAWYER, psychological consults are either referred by clinician or parent usually. It is written in the context of the interview transcript that:

    “First there was an introductory period in which Gardner explained to Jordie that there were some who claimed he might be lying, and that one of the purposes of the interview was to find out the truth.”

    WHO was saying he was lying? If it were MJ’s team who accused Jordan of lying, the request would have come from MJ’s lawyers, NOT from Chandler’s. So it was NOT MJ who requested an evaluation by a false accusation specialist. Remember, part of Evan Chandler’s plan was to find a way to get away with the extortion without any retribution coming back to him. His main motivation was obtaining money and a screenwriting deal first and foremost. Second, since he was planning to use Jordan to get money, he had to find a way to gain custody over Jordan. If he had custody over Jordan, he had direct access to the money through Jordan. Evan would have then manipulated Jordan to use the money for his purposes. Evan had extensive instruction through his lawyer, and so he used his lawyer’s position and power too.

    “In October of 1993 Larry Feldman sent Jordie to New York to be interviewed by the man, Dr. Richard Gardner, the nation’s leading authority on false claims of child abuse. More often than not Dr. Gardner appears as an expert witness for the defense.”

    Again, “for the defense” line does NOT refer to MJ’s defense of Jordan’s accusations as the request for referral did NOT come from HIS lawyers. The person who made the mjfacts site wanted to give the impression that the interviews were requested by MJ’s defense team, but that is not true. It is a lie inferred within the truth.

    Evan and June Chandler was in a custody battle dispute during the time of this evaluation, by which Evan had prime motivations and made declarations of his plans to take custody of Jordan from June as stated in the taped conversations with Evan Chandler and David Schwartz. The “defense” very well could have been between the Chandler’s dispute of custody. This means that one of the Chandlers would have used this information LATER when it came time for the hearings for child custody were to take place. Since June was under duress to participate, and Evan had motivation to use Dr. Gardner’s services also, it is both that would have a vested interest to have this interview done. Again, since the evaluation referral was requested by Larry Feldman (who was Chandler’s lawyer) is the truth of why the interview was conducted, as it had NO clinical basis to be referred by a doctor.

    In evaluating the possibility of abuse, determining false allegations, PAS, psychological disorders or other issues within the Chandler family dynamics, there would have been more interviews with Dr. Gardner. Interviews such as when Dr. Gardner stated in this transcript that he would be speaking to Jordan’s parents again in the near future, and it would be standard procedure then that he would have followed up again with another interview Jordan at a later date, which are at least TWO more interviews that could have been taped or transcribed. It takes time and more than one interview to determine false accusations, PAS, motivations, and diagnosis, so it is not likely that that even if psychological testing was not done, there would have been more interviews anyway. It IS a usual procedure to test for psychological disorders regardless of reason for initial interview. Interviews conducted over time would reveal any inconsistencies, which would also inadvertently allow Evan and Jordan to “practice and be coached”, even without Dr. Gardner’s direct knowledge of the interviews being used in this way.

    It is not likely that Dr. Gardner was cognizant that the Chandlers would have used their interviews for coaching and practice, for the true reasons for the interviews was for manipulative purposes NOT treatment or mental/emotional health of the client, however, psychologists are taught how to identify client manipulation. Dr. Gardner had stated many times on his own site that he followed APA ethic codes faithfully, which means if he knew the interviews were for practice and coaching in order to extort money from someone else as this was Evan’s plans, Dr. Gardner would not have allowed participation through allowing to evaluate Jordan. Dr. Gardner had made public comments regarding another case, the McMartin school case where over a hundred children were lying about false allegations of sexual abuse. Dr. Gardner was the ONLY psychologist to warn everyone that he KNEW the majority if not all of the children were lying. Dr. Gardner was right, it was found at a later date that most of the children were lying. It is my professional opinion that Dr. Gardner would have been able to see through the Chanders.

    For this document of the transcript to have been available to someone to put on an online site, specifically mjfacts.info or when these were released to the press, the request to have the transcripts would have been allowed from a signed release consent form. Recordings of psychological interviews require a consent form to be allowed to be taped before the interview was conducted AND a consent form to have the transcript from the recordings anytime afterwards. These consent forms had to have been at the request of a Chandler who is in charge of Jordan’s care, unless at the time of request, Jordan was his own guardian. ONLY a CHANDLER would have access to the recordings for it to BE released to the public elsewhere.

    Now….There is a possibility that the Chandlers had their own recording devices to record the session without Dr. Gardner’s knowledge. In that case, there would be NO consent forms signed by the Chandlers, but they would have needed a consent by Dr Gardner. In that case, if Dr. Gardner was alive at the time the transcript was released, he could have sued the Chandler’s because THEY did not have HIS permission to record the session nor to release the transcripts of a session by Dr. Gardner to the public. It is not usual for a professional in the psychology profession to “leak” any private session to the media and certainly not without a consent form from the Chandlers. Dr. Gardner would have no reason to do so professionally or personally. By the way, the mjfacts.info site was created in 2011, which is after Dr. Gardner passed away in 2003. Ray Chandler stated himself in his book “All That Glitters” that had MJ paid the 20 million dollars “demanded of him that August rather than the following January, that he would have spent the next ten years as the world’s most famous entertainer, instead of the world’s most famous child molester.” (All that Glitters, p. 128). Evan negotiated for 20 million dollars in screenwriting plays, NOT for “damages”, mental anguish, or treatment for the alleged allegations of child molestation. That distinction alone indicates that Evan Chandler’s scheme of child molestation was FALSE. If your child was molested, would you negotiate a 20 million dollar screenwriting business deal? Certainly not.

    So in short, the transcript was made available by no one other than a Chandler and the interview served as practice and coaching purposes.

    The conclusions from the clinician are INTENTIONALLY OMITTED in effort to conceal the truth.

    Which means, Jordan WAS lying and the accusations were false.

    Lovelightmagic

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  16. may71997 says:

    Guys, I don’t know whether it’s just me but there’s something very odd with Jordan’s description of the stages of his relationship with Michael. While asked about the hugging stage Jordan says it was sometime early/ middle May. Talking about the trip to Monaco Jordan says “that’s pretty much when the bad stuff happened.” and he says that Michael masturbated him. Let’s remember the world music awards were held in May 12th 1993 (which is middle of May) so the trip to Monaco was in middle May. (correct me if Im wrong) And when talking about the Florida trip which is in April, Jordan says “he grabbed my butt, put his tongue in my ear”. So now tell me, if in the middle of May it was only the hugging stage how is it possible that Michael was grabbing Jordan’ s butt and putting his tongue in his ear in April? And moreover if it was only huggung in May how is it possible that Michael was masturbating him during the Monaco trip (which was in the middle of May too?

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  17. Pingback: Chandler-Schwartz Conversations- Part 3 – An Integrated Analysis Part A | mjjjusticeproject

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